So Tell me again Why WE INVEST HEAVILY IN A BUGGY WHIP PLANT ??

[oneoff]

There was a nutty claim made that solar photovoltaic (PV) will really take off when new storage batteries become available.

Now that premise would make sense if the satisfactory intent was to go off grid and not ever need any backup for the emergencies caused by that plow wind or siding smashing hailstorm or the 85% of the time the batteries are discharging because of darkness or poor sunlight condition. I'm sure moonlight would result in low output.

Now i you must ask for solar power (or preferably walk the talk) a more sensible solar solution is to remain tied into the electrical grid; use every watt o solar power before the utility electrical meter; or on good days potentially spin that bi-directional meter backwards. Now inverter power supplies make that foolproof, almost too simple to believe and only thing preventing it is that even that makes no sense at any level. What does make some sense is to set up your own subsystem for meagre contributions to your person electrical demand and still basically rely on the reliable electrical grid for what you can aford and actually need (all way up to what some people want ...like carbon taxes are designed to accommodate).

This makes sense because except for dedicated survivalists and every individual being 100% self sufficient at extreme costs and beyond almost anyone's capability (except where money is no object or you are not prohibited by severe punishment and bylaws, 10 to 25 thousand dollar general penalty fines (or millions per occurance or per day), franchise rules, cease and desist orders and so on.....its already been accepted that paying your natural gas bill or electrical utility charges are really the cheapest and only sensible way or a society to operate.

No, no,no....... solar PV will really take off when it works well enough to be worth while; and will work best for those who don't use up more energy charging and discharging batteries than is produced and it will work marginally better for wise persons who don't spend exhorbitant amounts that are in totality only contribute to their delusions.

[oneoff]

There was a nutty claim made that solar photovoltaic (PV) will really take off when new storage batteries become available.

Now that premise would make sense if the satisfactory intent was to go off grid and not ever need any backup for the emergencies caused by that plow wind or siding smashing hailstorm or the 85% of the time the batteries are discharging because of darkness or poor sunlight condition. I'm sure moonlight would result in low output.

Now i you must ask for solar power (or preferably walk the talk) a more sensible solar solution is to remain tied into the electrical grid; use every watt o solar power before the utility electrical meter; or on good days potentially spin that bi-directional meter backwards. Now inverter power supplies make that foolproof, almost too simple to believe and only thing preventing it is that even that makes no sense at any level. What does make some sense is to set up your own subsystem for meagre contributions to your person electrical demand and still basically rely on the reliable electrical grid for what you can afford and actually need (all way up to what some people want ...like carbon taxes are designed to accommodate).



This makes sense because except for dedicated survivalists and every individual being 100% self sufficient at extreme costs and beyond almost anyone's capability (except where money is no object or you are not prohibited by severe punishment and bylaws, 10 to 25 thousand dollar general penalty fines (or millions per occurence or per day), franchise rules, cease and desist orders and so on.....its already been accepted that paying your natural gas bill or electrical utility charges are really the cheapest and only sensible way or a society to operate.

No, no,no....... solar PV will really take off when it works well enough to be worth while; and will work best for those who don't use up more energy charging and discharging batteries than is produced and it will work marginally better for wise persons who don't spend exhorbitant amounts that are in totality only contribute to their delusions.

Batteries are also notorious for toxicity, hazards, pollution and so far short lives. There are alternatives and those counting on batteries really driving solar energy should put their own efforts into coming up with more suitable alternatives.




Any response that addresses these comments would be appreciated; especially if any part of a reply made any sense whatsoever.

[oneoff]

There was a nutty claim made that solar photovoltaic (PV) will really take off when new storage batteries become available.

Now that premise would make sense if the satisfactory intent was to go off grid and not ever need any backup for the emergencies caused by that plow wind or siding smashing hailstorm or the 85% of the time the batteries are discharging because of darkness or poor sunlight condition. I'm sure moonlight would result in low output.

Now i you must ask for solar power (or preferably walk the talk) a more sensible solar solution is to remain tied into the electrical grid; use every watt o solar power before the utility electrical meter; or on good days potentially spin that bi-directional meter backwards. Now inverter power supplies make that foolproof, almost too simple to believe and only thing preventing it is that even that makes no sense at any level. What does make some sense is to set up your own subsystem for meagre contributions to your person electrical demand and still basically rely on the reliable electrical grid for what you can afford and actually need (all way up to what some people want ...like carbon taxes are designed to accommodate).



This makes sense because except for dedicated survivalists and every individual being 100% self sufficient at extreme costs and beyond almost anyone's capability (except where money is no object or you are not prohibited by severe punishment and bylaws, 10 to 25 thousand dollar general penalty fines (or millions per occurence or per day), franchise rules, cease and desist orders and so on.....its already been accepted that paying your natural gas bill or electrical utility charges are really the cheapest and only sensible way or a society to operate.

No, no,no....... solar PV will really take off when it works well enough to be worth while; and will work best for those who don't use up more energy charging and discharging batteries than is produced and it will work marginally better for wise persons who don't spend exhorbitant amounts that are in totality only contribute to their delusions.

Batteries are also notorious for toxicity, hazards, pollution and so far short lives. There are alternatives and those counting on batteries really driving solar energy should put their own efforts into coming up with more suitable alternatives.




Any response that addresses these comments would be appreciated; especially if any part of a reply made any sense whatsoever. Reply With Quote

[chuckChuck]

You may not know this but Sask power will pay you the same as they charge you for electricity from solar power generation from farms and residences. It is now possible to buy a ground mount or roof mount grid tie solar kit and and do a lot of the installation your self. Sask power provides a meter that runs in reverse.

For about the price of a diesel 3/4 ton truck you could cover most if not all of your farm power needs for the year (around 50,000 kwh). On our farm with numerous aeration fans and a small cleaning plant which are only run for a few weeks of the year we use around 50000 kwh. You still need to be tied to grid to provide power when the sun is not shining but you can often produce more power that you need when the sun is shining.

Even if you get professional installation the long terms costs run .10 cents a kwh. Sask Power charges around 11-12 cents and rates are set to rise.

If you do a lot of your own work the costs per kwh are probably 6-8 cents per kwh. Solar panels are coming down fast and will become more efficient and much cheaper every year.

These systems are being installed across the prairies in growing numbers.

[foragefarmer]

Sk3


"Oh and a 100 year supply. so lets shut it down and leave it in the ground. "


Then in year 101, what is the alternative? Oh, that's another generations problem. Something else is going to have to used to power the turbines. Who gives a shit about developing new energy sources as I won't be around. Hell of an attitude to have!

[fjlip]

You may not know this but Sask power will pay you the same as they charge you for electricity from solar power generation from farms and residences. It is now possible to buy a ground mount or roof mount grid tie solar kit and and do a lot of the installation your self. Sask power provides a meter that runs in reverse.

For about the price of a diesel 3/4 ton truck you could cover most if not all of your farm power needs for the year (around 50,000 kwh). On our farm with numerous aeration fans and a small cleaning plant which are only run for a few weeks of the year we use around 50000 kwh. You still need to be tied to grid to provide power when the sun is not shining but you can often produce more power that you need when the sun is shining.

Even if you get professional installation the long terms costs run .10 cents a kwh. Sask Power charges around 11-12 cents and rates are set to rise.

If you do a lot of your own work the costs per kwh are probably 6-8 cents per kwh. Solar panels are coming down fast and will become more efficient and much cheaper every year.

These systems are being installed across the prairies in growing numbers.

That is just great! As I have said many times, INCENTIVES, if it PAYS we will change...to beat ourselves up with a TAX, lose competitiveness, is total insanity! Carrots NOT sticks idiot Libs.

[bucket]

We could in Saskatchewan build 3 more hydro plants if the environmentalosts would let it happen.

[oneoff]

Its kind of self explanatory that a bi-directional meter (which is installed after you pay Sask Power $600.00 or so) and after the whole installation has been installed by a qualified electrician; the permits and wiring brought up to current Electrical code and all equipment attached having CSA approval.

As a Small Power Producer (less than 100KW generating capacity) you agree to to a 20 year binding contract at a tariff schedule in force at Sask Power's sole discretion. It was 10.6 cents a kwh a few months ago; and is subject to a schedule of increases that you have no control over. Sort of cost of living increases. Nothing to say electrical rates will be subject to moest increases only. In fact one would be wise to expect more than one 5% rise each year. Next one soon as was announced .

You may not know it; but all "carbon credit" crap conditions become Sask Power's Entitlement.

You probably didn't ask but under the contract of a small power producer you will do each and improvement and upgrade that Sask Power requests (at your cost and according to how they demand).

I know you didn't ask about things like "demand charges"; power cleanliness ( and I mean harmonics, power factors and a host of over current, fault protection, frequency voltage (over and under spec) disconnects, computers and knowledge that only an electrical engineer has). Thats all deemed (and is) necessary to prevent "islanding"; electrocuting linemen and damage to Sask Power system and of course each of their customers. Which if anyone thinks about it brings up topics of insurance, liability and exposure to risks your home owners package does not address.



Since that last paragraph is a mouthful I'll elaborate on a couple of issues. Well maybe not; because there is no one that will give an answer on "demand charges". If you were an oil company or industrial user; that same bi directional meter has a function that sticks at whatever maximum consumption was ...practically an instantaneous reading when ever a combination of heavy loads is applied by you onto the grid. Now we're talking about things like aeration fans when they announce that customers have to help finance electrical networks for the maximum combined loads that the system has to be designed for.

Does that apply in reverse where new generating capacity affects the grid such as you insinuate is around the corner from new Small Power Producers. The answer from Sask Power is "good question ...I don't think----"; but do we just assume these real costs deserve to always be paid by someone else...and not the ones who want things changed at no cost to themselves.

But I'd expect that having single phase power and accumulation of at least 3 to 5 HP loads (every throw) likely means a lot of people should be saving money for 3 phase services and preparing themselves for "demand charges" no matter what happens.

Oh and a tiny feature of that "demand needle" (or equivalent) is that the meter reader isn't in any hurry to reset it just because you say you only use fans for a few weeks a year. Another feature of demand charges is that you pay that fee permanently (whether you use another Kwh or not) until that "needle " is reset. Its $8.00 or so dollars/Kwh per month as I recall from several months ago


More information to ignore???

In summary: maybe there are sound reasons why interested parties back away from fully utiliizing Small Power Producer Programs. Keep your ear to the ground and you'll learn the reasons why. I haven't seen any press announcement of any investors trading in their new 3/4 ton to go into the electrical generating business. In fact I know you'll could more likely be told that your generation project idea....if approved...would be the first under that category of Small Power Producer. And any decision an investor makes probably has no relationship to the projects satisfactory return on investment; and if it does go ahead will be done for totally different reasons.

[oneoff]

Quote
You may not know this but Sask power will pay you the same as they charge you for electricity from solar power generation from farms and residences.
Unquote

No I still don't know that. There is the strong possibility it is misinformation.

There are two programs from Sask Power with a total of three potential options

NET Metering is available to all customers in SaskPower franchise areas (and a couple other small power utilities) There is banking between months;but at the yearly anniversary any excess is confiscated . That is all cash payments can only go one way. There is a 20% rebate for eligible expenses up to $20,000 but you do sell a small part of your soul. And hot dog it does include biomass; flare gas, wind, solar and possibibly whatever you and Sask Power think might work.

Under the SMALL POWER PRODUCER program (less than 100KW nameplate rating) the applicant has two option...sell all produced over 20 year period or use what you can produced and sell rest as registered by a bi-directional meter.

There is a Kwh base rate set (still currently 10.6 cents.Kwh) and a 2% increase per year. You pledge more of your soul and as stated it lasts for 20 years. All costs of construction, uogrades commissioning and maintenance are yours as Sask Power solely directs.

Last personal power bill came in at 11.8 cents/Kwh so Sask Power isn't outright giving to little generators lower tha than their retail price; although they allow you to use their "grid battery" by tying into their system. Commercial, oil industry, rinks and business users pay the "demand charge" and somewhat less for electrical KWh consumption and the bill ends up maybe 30% higher than residential and farm customers.

Basic monthly charges (for "meters" )are all over the board. Farms now pay $32.61 plus tax; oil well meters are somewhat over $50.00 per month and thus dozens or thousands got pulled in the last few months as cost cutting measures. So no more cathodic protection on those wells which will never probably pump again and haven't for some decades anyway. Oh and those city customers get their power and gas installations for next to nothing and monthly meter rates considerably lower than country cousins.

And there is a 20% rebate (up tp 20,000) available for new "Net Meter" customers installations.They do keepp track of you for 10 years and collect your data.

All is not as some blandly profess.

Not proof read

[chuckChuck]

From Sask Powers Net Metering Program
What if you could generate your own electricity and get credit for the unused portion from your power utility? Our Net Metering Program offers you the opportunity to generate your own power through the use of renewable energy technology.

Residents, farms and businesses with approved environmentally preferred technologies of up to 100 kilowatts (kW) of nominal (nameplate) generating capacity can deliver their excess electricity to our electrical grid. A bi-directional meter (installed by SaskPower or your local electricity provider) keeps track of the electricity to and from the grid for billing purposes.
How Does It Work?

Electricity sent to the grid is banked and applied to your current month’s electricity consumption. Any excess electricity is carried over to the following month and applied against that month’s consumption. A credit appears on your monthly bill showing the net amount of electricity that has been banked. Your excess power should be used within the year; if not, at the end of 12 months on your net metering anniversary date, any credits you may have for excess electricity sent to the grid will reset to zero.

If you want to produce more power than you consume over the calendar year and sell it to SaskPower, consider the Small Power Producers Program.
Your Net Metering Anniversary Date

To help maximize the use of credits built up in a 12-month period, we’ll set the anniversary date for net metering customers based on the type of generation system installed in Saskatchewan. Request your local electricity provider to do the same (if available).
Solar photovoltaic (PV) systems

March or April — to maximize the use of your credits built up over the summer season.
Wind turbine systems

August or September — to maximize the use of your credits built up over the winter and spring seasons.
Other renewable generation systems

The anniversary date will reflect the month in which your bi-directional meter was installed.

If you prefer a different anniversary date than what’s indicated above, please contact us or your local electricity provider to adjust your date.
How Do I Apply?

SaskPower customers can apply for a net metering interconnection to the electrical grid at any time. The first step is to complete the Application for Net Metering and Preliminary Interconnection Study . Print off the form, complete it and send it, along with your payment, to the address listed at the top of the form. Please keep copies of all the information you send to us for your records.

If you're not a SaskPower customer, check with your local electricity provider for details and steps for interconnection.
Installation Process

Once you have completed and sent in the Application for Net Metering and Preliminary Interconnection Study form, the following steps should be taken to have your net metering system installed:

Costs

Your net metering interconnection to the grid expenses include:

Rebate

We’ll pay a one-time rebate, equivalent to 20 per cent of eligible costs to a maximum payment of $20,000, for a new grid interconnected net metering project. The Net Metering Rebate is available to SaskPower, Saskatoon Light & Power and City of Swift Current electricity customers until November 30, 2018.
Credits and Rates

We credit your excess power at the same rate that you purchase power. Power billing is based on kilowatt-hours (kWh). As an example, if you are purchasing power at $0.1123/kWh, then your excess power will be credited at that amount.
Periodic Reviews

The Net Metering Program is reviewed annually.

[oneoff]

If the repeater of the last post can't or won't listen to me...then at least read what you reprint before duplicating it for the public


Third paragraph..last words just above... "will be rest to zero" after anniversary date (ie. 12 months).

THERE IS ZERO CHANCE UNDER THE NET METERING CONTRACT THAT YOU GET ONE CENT FOR ANY EXTRA POWER PRODUCED. All monetary charges are one way; and in addition to monthly meter and basic charges, taxes and quite possibly "delivery" and/or "backup load fees" under some heading or other.

It must be a sign of great weakness to not be able to bring oneself to an admission that a contract means what it says rather creating statements which are obviously smooth sales promotions based on incomplete misinformation; summaries; future possibilities, expectations; projections and as yet unproven technology.

Where are disclaimers and disclosures of agendas and conflicts of interest?

[sawfly1]

thanks oneoff for all the information