So Tell me again Why WE INVEST HEAVILY IN A BUGGY WHIP PLANT ??

[oneoff]

Attn "Ham"

Very, very, very well put sir. If we could get a reply to your concise and compelling question...then the overall costs for a reliable electrical generating network would be conceded to be

WIND or SOLAR (LCOE or LACE) plus the baseload demand duplication of facilities we currently trust and depend upon.

Unless you're willing to buy 50% of Sask current power at spot prices over which no one has any control and the sky high price truly is the limit in peak demand periods.

[ado089]

I hope you're not counting on wind power to stay warm tonight.

[ajl]

When I am premier I will immediately move to can both CCS and all wind and solar subsidies. All are a waste of time and money. The biggest mistake that politicians like Stephen Harper and Brad Wall have made was to partially go along with the AGW scam thinking that would broaden their support base. I didn't because those loons have the NDP, the Liberals. and the Greens to chose from already.

[chuckChuck]

Germany is a world leader in renewable energy. 38% of their electricity comes from renewables. 6.4% is from PV and 32.5% is from wind. There is lots of good information in the following link. Including that since 2006 PV power plants have fallen in cost 13% per year for a total of 75%!

Solar PV will really take off once there are good storage systems. At this point in time Germany and Canada we will still need to rely on fossil fuels to provide base loads. Which we already knew. Wind is probably the best investment at this time and that is why there are alot of wind turbines in North Dakota and many being planned for Saskatchewan. Purchasing surplus hydro from Manitoba may be another very good investment but will require our grids to be hooked together.

https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/publications/veroeffentlichungen-pdf-dateien-en/studien-und-konzeptpapiere/recent-facts-about-photovoltaics-in-germany.pdf

[chuckChuck]

Since none of us have the training, knowledge or time to adequately study the issue of the current system and the transition to renewables I think we should assume that since Brad Wall and Sask Power have committed to produce 50% of Saskatchewan's power from renewables by 2030 that they have looked at the numbers and have decided that it can be done and is a good investment.

If you don't believe Sask Power or Brad Wall then it is up to you to challenge their plans directly with them. They are the ones who are responsible for the decisions that will be made.

[SASKFARMER3]

Jobs!

Oh and a 100 year supply. so lets shut it down and leave it in the ground.

Yet china is going to expand coal.

Yea heres your sign.

[Hamloc]

Chuch2, I would agree that those people who live in the real world realize we provide base load from natural gas or hydro or nuclear. But that isn't how governments promote so called green energy. Show me one statement from Our Prime Minister or Premier Notley where they acknowledge that for every KW of wind or solar generation almost the same amount of natural gas or hydro generation will be required! Duplication of power line infrastructure, power coming from 2 locations to supply one source. How is that efficient or enviromentally friendly?

[oneoff]

How disingenuous can you get when comparing apples to oranges?

Germany is a lot more densely populated; not thousands of miles from ocean winds; has navigable river systems and not landlocked like most prairie provinces; doesn't have the same persistent harsh winters and so on.. Some appear to be able to ignore all that which doesn't confirm what they already know.

So to bring this discussion back to Canada (and particularly Western Canada ) that federal politicians could give a rats ass about..... there's the problem of requiring something in addition to wind and solar. In fact, as is quite clear; wind is only useful 40% of the time and solar maybe 15%. in Sask And the duplication is equivalent to wasting money and using scarce resources and rolling dice.

And batteries for storage aren't needed when those panels are tied into an electrcal grid. (More on that in a new thread) Batteries which don't exist; will have their own set of pollution, hazards and astronomical costs and finite lifetimes.

Reminds me of it being acceptable to go real hungry or starve to death a few dozen times in a lifetime. I'm not buying that you shut down all coal fired power plants (that provide 50% of Sask power capacity. And I'm not buying its sound business to not be energy independent; and that costs won't skyrocket when you rely on spot markets and water power generated from dams that take longer to build and commission than any pipeline.

Just as I don't buy the organic premise that all other food is nutrient deficient; completely poisoned;
unhealthy and unsafe on every count and when those factors are taken into account we should all be eating food that couldn't possibly be made available (immediately) quickly enough to cause widespread hunger and starvation
We ain't seen nothing yet. Trump isn't the ultimate fanatic.

In fact he's starting to appear pretty mild.

[checking]

Glad to see that cc. has come around to finally acknowledging that those who decide policy own it.

"They are the ones who are responsible for the decisions that will be made.", quotes cc.

You are going to be taxed starting 2018, isn't good enough.

Solar panels and wind, coal and oil, neither require our bandwagons.

What is required is an explanation as to why the public needs to be taxed on every piece of carbon we burn. Tell us/me what we're/I'm allotted tax carbon free at base date 2005, and at least I can make it work, or pay the overage.

It's government's baby. Let it be tarred with the consequences, or celebrated.

[oneoff]

There was a nutty claim made that solar photovoltaic (PV) will really take off when new storage batteries become available.

Now that premise would make sense if the satisfactory intent was to go off grid and not ever need any backup for the emergencies caused by that plow wind or siding smashing hailstorm or the 85% of the time the batteries are discharging because of darkness or poor sunlight condition. I'm sure moonlight would result in low output.

Now i you must ask for solar power (or preferably walk the talk) a more sensible solar solution is to remain tied into the electrical grid; use every watt o solar power before the utility electrical meter; or on good days potentially spin that bi-directional meter backwards. Now inverter power supplies make that foolproof, almost too simple to believe and only thing preventing it is that even that makes no sense at any level. What does make some sense is to set up your own subsystem for meagre contributions to your person electrical demand and still basically rely on the reliable electrical grid for what you can aford and actually need (all way up to what some people want ...like carbon taxes are designed to accommodate).

This makes sense because except for dedicated survivalists and every individual being 100% self sufficient at extreme costs and beyond almost anyone's capability (except where money is no object or you are not prohibited by severe punishment and bylaws, 10 to 25 thousand dollar general penalty fines (or millions per occurance or per day), franchise rules, cease and desist orders and so on.....its already been accepted that paying your natural gas bill or electrical utility charges are really the cheapest and only sensible way or a society to operate.

No, no,no....... solar PV will really take off when it works well enough to be worth while; and will work best for those who don't use up more energy charging and discharging batteries than is produced and it will work marginally better for wise persons who don't spend exhorbitant amounts that are in totality only contribute to their delusions.

[oneoff]

There was a nutty claim made that solar photovoltaic (PV) will really take off when new storage batteries become available.

Now that premise would make sense if the satisfactory intent was to go off grid and not ever need any backup for the emergencies caused by that plow wind or siding smashing hailstorm or the 85% of the time the batteries are discharging because of darkness or poor sunlight condition. I'm sure moonlight would result in low output.

Now i you must ask for solar power (or preferably walk the talk) a more sensible solar solution is to remain tied into the electrical grid; use every watt o solar power before the utility electrical meter; or on good days potentially spin that bi-directional meter backwards. Now inverter power supplies make that foolproof, almost too simple to believe and only thing preventing it is that even that makes no sense at any level. What does make some sense is to set up your own subsystem for meagre contributions to your person electrical demand and still basically rely on the reliable electrical grid for what you can afford and actually need (all way up to what some people want ...like carbon taxes are designed to accommodate).



This makes sense because except for dedicated survivalists and every individual being 100% self sufficient at extreme costs and beyond almost anyone's capability (except where money is no object or you are not prohibited by severe punishment and bylaws, 10 to 25 thousand dollar general penalty fines (or millions per occurence or per day), franchise rules, cease and desist orders and so on.....its already been accepted that paying your natural gas bill or electrical utility charges are really the cheapest and only sensible way or a society to operate.

No, no,no....... solar PV will really take off when it works well enough to be worth while; and will work best for those who don't use up more energy charging and discharging batteries than is produced and it will work marginally better for wise persons who don't spend exhorbitant amounts that are in totality only contribute to their delusions.

Batteries are also notorious for toxicity, hazards, pollution and so far short lives. There are alternatives and those counting on batteries really driving solar energy should put their own efforts into coming up with more suitable alternatives.




Any response that addresses these comments would be appreciated; especially if any part of a reply made any sense whatsoever.

[oneoff]

There was a nutty claim made that solar photovoltaic (PV) will really take off when new storage batteries become available.

Now that premise would make sense if the satisfactory intent was to go off grid and not ever need any backup for the emergencies caused by that plow wind or siding smashing hailstorm or the 85% of the time the batteries are discharging because of darkness or poor sunlight condition. I'm sure moonlight would result in low output.

Now i you must ask for solar power (or preferably walk the talk) a more sensible solar solution is to remain tied into the electrical grid; use every watt o solar power before the utility electrical meter; or on good days potentially spin that bi-directional meter backwards. Now inverter power supplies make that foolproof, almost too simple to believe and only thing preventing it is that even that makes no sense at any level. What does make some sense is to set up your own subsystem for meagre contributions to your person electrical demand and still basically rely on the reliable electrical grid for what you can afford and actually need (all way up to what some people want ...like carbon taxes are designed to accommodate).



This makes sense because except for dedicated survivalists and every individual being 100% self sufficient at extreme costs and beyond almost anyone's capability (except where money is no object or you are not prohibited by severe punishment and bylaws, 10 to 25 thousand dollar general penalty fines (or millions per occurence or per day), franchise rules, cease and desist orders and so on.....its already been accepted that paying your natural gas bill or electrical utility charges are really the cheapest and only sensible way or a society to operate.

No, no,no....... solar PV will really take off when it works well enough to be worth while; and will work best for those who don't use up more energy charging and discharging batteries than is produced and it will work marginally better for wise persons who don't spend exhorbitant amounts that are in totality only contribute to their delusions.

Batteries are also notorious for toxicity, hazards, pollution and so far short lives. There are alternatives and those counting on batteries really driving solar energy should put their own efforts into coming up with more suitable alternatives.




Any response that addresses these comments would be appreciated; especially if any part of a reply made any sense whatsoever. Reply With Quote

[chuckChuck]

You may not know this but Sask power will pay you the same as they charge you for electricity from solar power generation from farms and residences. It is now possible to buy a ground mount or roof mount grid tie solar kit and and do a lot of the installation your self. Sask power provides a meter that runs in reverse.

For about the price of a diesel 3/4 ton truck you could cover most if not all of your farm power needs for the year (around 50,000 kwh). On our farm with numerous aeration fans and a small cleaning plant which are only run for a few weeks of the year we use around 50000 kwh. You still need to be tied to grid to provide power when the sun is not shining but you can often produce more power that you need when the sun is shining.

Even if you get professional installation the long terms costs run .10 cents a kwh. Sask Power charges around 11-12 cents and rates are set to rise.

If you do a lot of your own work the costs per kwh are probably 6-8 cents per kwh. Solar panels are coming down fast and will become more efficient and much cheaper every year.

These systems are being installed across the prairies in growing numbers.

[foragefarmer]

Sk3


"Oh and a 100 year supply. so lets shut it down and leave it in the ground. "


Then in year 101, what is the alternative? Oh, that's another generations problem. Something else is going to have to used to power the turbines. Who gives a shit about developing new energy sources as I won't be around. Hell of an attitude to have!

[fjlip]

You may not know this but Sask power will pay you the same as they charge you for electricity from solar power generation from farms and residences. It is now possible to buy a ground mount or roof mount grid tie solar kit and and do a lot of the installation your self. Sask power provides a meter that runs in reverse.

For about the price of a diesel 3/4 ton truck you could cover most if not all of your farm power needs for the year (around 50,000 kwh). On our farm with numerous aeration fans and a small cleaning plant which are only run for a few weeks of the year we use around 50000 kwh. You still need to be tied to grid to provide power when the sun is not shining but you can often produce more power that you need when the sun is shining.

Even if you get professional installation the long terms costs run .10 cents a kwh. Sask Power charges around 11-12 cents and rates are set to rise.

If you do a lot of your own work the costs per kwh are probably 6-8 cents per kwh. Solar panels are coming down fast and will become more efficient and much cheaper every year.

These systems are being installed across the prairies in growing numbers.

That is just great! As I have said many times, INCENTIVES, if it PAYS we will change...to beat ourselves up with a TAX, lose competitiveness, is total insanity! Carrots NOT sticks idiot Libs.