How much land will PV need to supply our electricity?

[oneoff]

Here's a starting point. It comes from California (reprinted fby "Canada" so needs some adaptation to Western Canadian needs. A chapter on more northern latitudes would be appropriate as snow loads; near Arctic conditions; blizzards and frost and more varying sunlight incident angles aren't in their vocabulary. And since I know of only one clay tile roof in the area; not many can just rip them off and install lighter "composite" shingles underneath to reduce the roof load. And I'd still worry a whole lot about how and especially who is going to maintain those "clean" delicate surfaces through the winter months. As the article alludes to; you need a standoff space to keep those panels from getting too warm; a factor the salesman omitted when he spread his propaganda about spraying on PV panels directly to the "shingles".
What a potential nightmare in the real world!!!


http://www.energy.ca.gov/reports/2001-09-04_500-01-


020.PDF[URL="http://www.energy.ca.gov/reports/2001-09-04_500-01-020.PDF"]http://www.energy.ca.gov/reports/2001-09-04_500-01-020.PDF[/URL]

[oneoff]

If it can't stand scrutiny....then treat it like the plague.

[sumdumguy]

The good lord made readily available an abundance of coal, other fuel sources, enough sunlight to photosynthesise so man could live like a king. We have a good thing going - what are we doing, wasting the few years on this planet trying to kill the golden goose? You guys who want to beat your heads against a brick wall, go ahead, have a blast. I see no reason at all to kill carbon, instead we should concentrate on its continued supply.

[tweety]

sumdum, have you ever looked up the definition of non-renewable? since you haven't, here it is from Wiki:

A non-renewable resource (also called a finite resource) is a resource that does not renew itself at a sufficient rate for sustainable economic extraction in meaningful human time-frames. An example is carbon-based, organically-derived fuel.

[oneoff]

Here's a definition of "too much renewables".or maybe "compounding a crisis"...... ..10 billion people and climbing by 2050.

[sumdumguy]

Tweety, I heard the NDPs during Blakeny's days bawling about running out of oil by 2000, "lock it in, save it", they begged. I was told point blank by a high-ranking executive at SaskEnergy that the oil reserves stopped at the Alberta/Saskatchewan border. He couldn't convince any of us then, but the gullibility was laughable. New technology is a game-changer and it isn't about to stop now. Who would have thought that the US would become oil self-sufficient?

IMHO, the carbon-attack scam is based on jealousy by the have-not countries. They control the United Nation's slush fund. That fund and baseless "foundations" funds are being used to spew propaganda and many have jumped on the band wagon for the $ ride (as well as so many well-meaning" folk. I know a few personally who hopped on the gravy train while smirking at public gatherings about the easy pickins. They now have two vacation homes and several ultra expensive cars in their garage. The whole scam is about to be exposed for what it is. And you Tweety can believe what you like but I am not paying for your gullibility. Go Brad Wall, the only premier with common sense.

[stonepicker]

Your a smart guy tweety, but i don't believe dead dinosaurs made all this oil we have in the ground world-wide. I think it's a much better bet to think that maybe it is a renewable resource. Thanks for the time and effort that you've put into this whole energy debate ( solar, windmills etc. ) oneoff.

[farmaholic]

Here's a definition of "too much renewables".or maybe "compounding a crisis"...... ..10 billion people and climbing by 2050.

Isn't that the truth!

On same note maybe we will have to "grow"(as in crops) more of our energy as a replacement for fossil fuels.
Conserve more of the resource in the ground for processes that aren't easily done with alternative energy. Change bad habits... maybe that is what the carbon tax is designed to do. But what will it take to change people's habits. Sad that we have to price it as to curb habits and in the same process punish those who rely on it for real legitimate everyday needs and uses to run their businesses.

[Hamloc]

Chuck2 I am curious does Sask power charge you transmission and distribution fees? I looked at 1 year or power bills for 2016. I used 19679 kWh of power, total cost 3775.36. 19.2 cents a kwh all in. I pay 8 cents a kwh for actual electricity. The rest is administration, distribution and transmission. Is your price of just over 11 cents all in?

I found another Calgary site selling a grid tie solar system, 7950 watts, 795 kWh average per month. Cost to purchase 14211.00 dollars. Installation on top of that. I assume using a ground mount this could be done for 3-4 thousand dollars not sure. At our Premiers price of 6.8 cents and hoping for a 18000 cost installed almost 28 year payback. Using Sask price of 11.2 cents just under 17 years. I would need 2 of these systems to cancel out the cost of my electricity but it wouldn't do anything about the transmission and distribution costs which are over half of my bill. Pointless exercise.

[oneoff]

I'll stick my neck out because chuck doesn't typically answer except with cut and pastes that come from that which confirms what he already firmly believes.

Sask power has a basic monthly charge for most of its customers. In cities and towns its the least. Farms are currently a little over 32 dollars a month and if its an oil ell pump its in excess of 50.00. Doesn't matter if you have three phase service or single phase; its the same price for everyone in the "class" of customer.

Now I believe there are special deals for really big customers like a steel mill; but they get cut off and temporarily shut down during high demand periods.

Onn top of that are demand charges of about $8.00 and change for the peak Kva registered during a billing period; but nobody seems to be in a hurry to reset the "needle" so even if no electrical consumption is used; oil companies (for sure) get sent about 60% bill even if the well is shut in for some months. The Sask Power utility seems to overlook demand charges for farmers at the present time; but most of the meters are fully capable of recording farm demand charges that could be way more significant than 80 bucks that a 5 to 7.5 hp three phase motor might draw. And make no mistake that unbalanced single phase loads of a swack of aeration fans on single phase won't become targets. The monthly bills already have a line for farm demand charges ...it just that the hammer hasn't come down yet.

Now as I mentioned in a previous thread; the unofficial answer from the guy who approves or rejects the small power producer applications couldn't definitively answer whether demand charges might apply to injecting significant small producer power into the electrical grid. So need to get that clarified in the 20 year contract.


Summary is that current 11.23 cents per Kwh is "all in" for farm customers; except for the 32 dollar meter charge... Well actually thats probably 5% higher effective today with the latest price increase; that cynics would be correct in saying is directly attributable to things like expensive clean coal carbon capture, cost over runs, higher than expected amine replacement; and penalties for non delivery of steady streams of CO2 as required by the purchasers CO2 sales agreement. Provincial debt is a big worry; and Crown dividends no doubt are factored in a couple of different way too.

This green electricity craze is already resulting in significant cost increases, even in Sask that hasn't yet signed on to the federal government requirement of tax or "cap and trade"; but has spent a couple billions to produce cleaner electricity in a little over a 100 MW generator at Estevan. Real expensive experiment; but geez what do you do...literally shut down 50% of electrical power in province and lay off a host of union members just after some real hard times in the fossil fuel business. Williston and Estevan are a lot like ghost towns compared to boom days a couple years ago.

All above information from memory and may be a few months old and subject to rounding errors too

Now natural gas is a different story and delivery charges based on gas used approximately doubles your natural gas bill. There is also about a 20 dollar per month meter charge

[Oliver88]

Tweety, I heard the NDPs during Blakeny's days bawling about running out of oil by 2000, "lock it in, save it", they begged. I was told point blank by a high-ranking executive at SaskEnergy that the oil reserves stopped at the Alberta/Saskatchewan border. He couldn't convince any of us then, but the gullibility was laughable. New technology is a game-changer and it isn't about to stop now. Who would have thought that the US would become oil self-sufficient?

IMHO, the carbon-attack scam is based on jealousy by the have-not countries. They control the United Nation's slush fund. That fund and baseless "foundations" funds are being used to spew propaganda and many have jumped on the band wagon for the $ ride (as well as so many well-meaning" folk. I know a few personally who hopped on the gravy train while smirking at public gatherings about the easy pickins. They now have two vacation homes and several ultra expensive cars in their garage. The whole scam is about to be exposed for what it is. And you Tweety can believe what you like but I am not paying for your gullibility. Go Brad Wall, the only premier with common sense.

Very good points.
You could also add the jealousy of the "have not" debt ridden eastern provinces are driving the federal carbon tax policy.

It doesn't help having the oil industry hating NDP steering the Alberta economy over a cliff as well.

[oneoff]

I'll stick my neck out because chuck doesn't typically answer except with cut and pastes that come from that which confirms what he already firmly believes.

Sask power has a basic monthly charge for most of its customers. In cities and towns its the least. Farms are currently a little over 32 dollars a month and if its an oil ewll pump its in excess of 50.00. Doesn't matter if you have three phase service or single phase; its the same price for everyone in the "class" of customer.

Now I believe there are special deals for really big customers like a steel mill; but they cagree to get cut off and temporarily shut down during high demand periods.

Onn top of that are demand charges of about $8.00 (for each kva of demand ...not kw) and change for the peak Kva registered during a billing period; but nobody seems to be in a hurry to reset the "needle" so even if no electrical consumption is used; oil companies (for sure) get sent about 60% bill even if the well is shut in for some months. Admittedly the electrical consumption charges is a bit lower at 7 cents/Kwh or so but total of demand and consumption is significantly higher than farm rate)The Sask Power utility seems to overlook demand charges for farmers at the present time; but most of the meters are fully capable of recording farm demand charges that could be way more significant than 80 bucks that a 5 to 7.5 hp three phase motor might draw. And make no mistake that unbalanced single phase loads of a swack of aeration fans on single phase won't become targets. The monthly bills already have a line for farm demand charges ...it just that the hammer hasn't come down yet.

Now as I mentioned in a previous thread; the unofficial answer from the guy who approves or rejects the small power producer applications couldn't definitively answer whether demand charges might apply to injecting significant small producer power into the electrical grid. So need to get that clarified in the 20 year contract.


Summary is that current 11.23 cents per Kwh is "all in" for farm customers; except for the 32 dollar meter charge... Well actually thats probably 5% higher effective today with the latest price increase; that cynics would be correct in saying is directly attributable to things like expensive clean coal carbon capture, cost over runs, higher than expected amine replacement; and penalties for non delivery of steady streams of CO2 as required by the purchasers CO2 sales agreement. Provincial debt is a big worry; and Crown dividends no doubt are factored in a couple of different way too.

This green electricity craze is already resulting in significant cost increases, even in Sask that hasn't yet signed on to the federal government requirement of tax or "cap and trade"; but has spent a couple billions to produce cleaner electricity in a little over a 100 MW generator at Estevan. Real expensive experiment; but geez what do you do...literally shut down 50% of electrical power in province and lay off a host of union members just after some real hard times in the fossil fuel business. Williston and Estevan are a lot like ghost towns compared to boom days a couple years ago.

All above information from memory and may be a few months old and subject to rounding errors too

Now natural gas is a different story and delivery charges based on gas used approximately doubles your natural gas bill. There is also about a 20 dollar per month meter charge

[URL="http://www.saskpower.com/accounts-and-services/power-rates/"]http://www.saskpower.com/accounts-and-services/power-rates/[/URL]

SaskPower got an 8.5% increase last year and not the 10% they wanted. Of course that was because it was considered too much of a shock all at once...so I bet remainder comes this year...plus anything more they get approved by Rate Review.

As for rates; one should not go by memory.

Oilfield now pays close to $60.00 per month basic; plus over 20 cents per Kwh (by time minimum 4 month demand charge is included and 60% of preceding 12 month demand etc.etc,)


Rate increases apply to basic charges too and not just electrical consumption. Power costs are escalating substantially.

[oneoff]

Farm rates are shown at same SaskPower website given above.

Just learned from that schedule that there is a 50 Kva limit (not Kw and that where power actors come in) before farms get billed for the excess demand over 50KVa . That demand business is where electricity gets damn expensive.

We're talking 30 cents per Kwh for some classes of customers for some ranges of consumption. For example farm use; consumption over 50Kva demand....will cost you 24.6 cents/Kwh for the next block of energy use .

Its 33.77 per month to keep the farm meter

[chuckChuck]

Boyd Solar in Alberta calculated that professionally installed grid tied solar pv electricity cost is 10 cents per kwh over a 25 year lifespan and 8.5 cents per kwh over 30 years. In Saskatchewan we paid Sask Power 11.25 cents per kwh in 2016. Add in an 8% increase for 2017.

If these are accurate numbers then this makes solar pv lower cost electricity in Saskatchewan.

Solar PV costs are continuing to drop.

The business case for farms and residences to install grid tied solar pv looks promising in Saskatchewan because the cost of Sask Power electricity will continue to rise.

Alberta and Manitoba have different costs and programs.

[oneoff]

Exactly what is stopping chuck from making a small fortune generating power (with solar panels) for 10 cents a kilowatt hour. The economics is repeated spouted as something we can all count on. I doubt new construction of any other substitute can be done for anywhere near that figure of 10 cents per Kwh today or in long term especially.

Purchasers of Boyd Solar are apparently promised/guaranteed professional installation...so why aren't they sold out for everything they can supply.

Sounds like nothing to do for 25 to 30 years; but generate power at no additional cost or bother

So there can't be anything missing from this glowing picture; except that the promoters don't jump in for some funny reasons ( not admitted to public) And there's even a gift of 20% from Sask Power or is that already factored in. But that would be a little deceitful one would think.

And manufacturers could back up what they supposedly promise with some sort of guarantee...or they could even supply the equipment for free and sell electricity to customers at below retail electrical charges. But no evidennce of that happening anywhere is there. Surely there is a demand for that.

Again there's a whole lot missing somewhere

Including the Boyd Solar sttatement that the mounting system have gone up in price (not down) and there is every expectation by the manufacturer/sales of Boyd that system costs will increase (not decrease in future.

And it is the system costs that are really important and not just individual components.