How much land will PV need to supply our electricity?

[blackpowder]

#justnothungryenough

[WiltonRanch]

I have a 30 joule fencer powered with 4 deep cycle batteries and a large pv cell. Not a cheap panel by any means. The fencer is set at 5 joules output unless something contacts then it spikes. Anyway, when there is sun and no ice it's marvellous but November that pv ices up or there's not enough solar radiation pushing through the clouds. The notion of green power is elegant but at this time the efficiency of such tech has a long way to go. I think mandating a phase out of coal by 2030 is too soon. Honestly I think Saskatchewan's plan for 50% renewables by 2030 is more realistic though still pie in the sky. Ultimately more dams should be built or nuclear reactors. But if our economy is run into the ground power demand will be such that no more excess is needed.

[oneoff]

You get same arguments against nuclear and dams and pipelines and development of all sorts. Their problems are ignored and simultaneously conventional is run into the ground by people who no longer could survive on their own.

Depending on subsidies and transferring wealth from that which has sustained our standard of living (before it is anywhere ready to replace the old)....is foolhardy and dangerous.

Trump will factor in this evolving Canadian story.

[may-be]

You get same arguments against nuclear and dams and pipelines and development of all sorts. Their problems are ignored and simultaneously conventional is run into the ground by people who no longer could survive on their own.

Depending on subsidies and transferring wealth from that which has sustained our standard of living (before it is anywhere ready to replace the old)....is foolhardy and dangerous.

Trump will factor in this evolving Canadian story.

I could not agree more... It's like some people are wearing blinders.

[chuckChuck]

Many Canadian industries get tax breaks, grants and subsidies including agriculture. Some industries would not be here or would be much smaller without government support and policies designed to support them. So when you talk about transfer of wealth from tax payers, include yourself in the list of recipients.

[ColevilleH2S]

Solar is awesome where peak loads coincide with peak sun. But in Canada peak loads happen in the dead of winter. In my neck of the woods, usable solar in December is 1/9th what it is in July. Just 11%. Does this make for a stable grid?

[may-be]

Many Canadian industries get tax breaks, grants and subsidies including agriculture. Some industries would not be here or would be much smaller without government support and policies designed to support them. So when you talk about transfer of wealth from tax payers, include yourself in the list of recipients.

I see my self as transferring wealth to the economy through indirect taxes already.

I thought about what I could do to do my part to help save the planet. Live like a hermit is the only thing I can think of at this time.

[Hamloc]

I looked on Boyd Solar's website to get some info(best site I have found so far). For an off grid system you size your solar array for have of your daily usage in the winter. I looked and some months in the winter I am over 40kwh per day. So I require a minimum 20 kwh solar array. Batteries should be 7 times usage or 280 kwh. The biggest package on the site is the boomer with a 12.48 kwh solar array and 156.3 kwh battery bank. Obviously not big enough but has a price of 97500 dollars. I would require 1.6 times that or possibly a 156000 dollar investment. This does not include installation. My yearly cost for electricity is just under 4000 dollars including GST. Does it look like it would pay? Also interesting to note less than 40% of that is electricity charges. The majority is transmission and administration. On the Boyd Solar sight they also discuss grid tied in systems. They state for that you would require 8.5 cents a kilowatt for 30 years to pay for a grid tied in system. At present power is lower than that in Alberta and Premier Notley has promised a price ceiling of 6.8 cents a kilowatt to begin in June. Can you say subsidies required! Sorry Chuck2 real numbers don't work argue all you want!

[chuckChuck]

Hamloc. I live in Saskatchewan. Here is what Sask Power does:

"Credits and Rates

We credit your excess power at the same rate that you purchase power. Power billing is based on kilowatt-hours (kWh). As an example, if you are purchasing power at $0.1123/kWh, then your excess power will be credited at that amount."

Sask Power uses a 2 way meter. So any electricity I produce is worth the same price I pay $0.1123/kWh (11.2 cents per kwh)

Boyd Solar which you quoted, shows the cost of electricity from Solar PV systems in the 10 cents per kwh for 25 years or 8.5 cents per kwh for 30 years.

So based on professionally installed grid tied systems solar pv systems, according to Boyd, are currently cheaper than Sask Power rates when looking at 25 or 30 year life spans.

You can buy a kit and cut the costs further by installing the ground mount or roof system your self and hiring a local electrician to do the hook up. Most farmers will have the necessary skill and equipment.

So it looks like a big investment, but if you consider that rates in Saskatchewan and Alberta are going to rise, then solar pv grid tied systems are an option to keep electricity costs down in the long run.

Each province has a different system for grid tie so a lot depends on which province you are in.

I don't think a battery system makes sense for any larger farm loads at this time. If it is just an off grid residential load and you have gas for cooking, heating, and drying clothes then a battery backup system would be more feasible.

I am more interested in a grid tied ground mount solar pv system. My farm neighbor just put in a roof top system and I am following his experience and results.

As I have said all along we can't replace fossil fuels in the foreseeable future. But we can sure start to use solar PV, wind and energy efficiency gains to reduce the consumption of fossil fuels.

That is why Saskpower and Brad Wall have been saying 50% renewables by 2030 which will include wind, solar and hydro.

[blackpowder]

Electricity is currently the cheapest work money can buy. I do not have throw away money to spend on reinventing an extremely expensive wheel just to prove I can.
Buying any solar energy equipment for general home or farm use here merely suggests you have extra money to throw on a principle.

[tweety]

Our generation won't have a problem. So let's just leave it for the next one to figure out.

[oneoff]

When we start seeing the actual results provided by that phantom neighbor (under real Sask winter conditions) then chuck mightl start giving some useful data. Better still; if that neighbor wishes to promote his ideas; then the information would be welcomed and appreciated by some. Others would only spin it into their crusade for forcing others into some chosen pattern of change...if results were compatible; but.
To hear that someone is considering putting up some solar cells; or monitoring other people's systems doesn't impress me much. If those other people invested their money; took the risks and wish to share their results THEN THAT"S THEIR BUSINESS.

So far all I've seen published concerns countries and states that don't have much for frost; but for a few times a year; and live at sea level beside oceans that provide ameliorating conditions that don't resemble blizzards and snowbanks for 5 or 6 months at a stretch.

People hire others to shovel the snow off their roof; they don't build their own house or cover it with solar panels. 40 KW Pole mount solar panels my ass. Battery system the same.




You don't install your own electrical or heating system to save money; unless the conventional systems aren't available; or occasionally if something is constructed to prove a point or just as an experimental project .

And it sure looks like the intent is to destroy conventional everything so that the "green" alternative has a chance at under subsidized ideal conditions and all the stars aligning it will function fine for a few minutes or maybe a few tens of hours .

Don't fall for the line "Fossil fuels will be around for a long time yet". Thats true with the caveat; at what price; with what restrictions and who will decide that is no longer true? Can everyone pass those extra costs on; who will determine when; if and how it can continue ? Do you have markets where your fussy eaters have no concern whether its two or three times the price...so long as they "trust"" and "believe" and have "faith" in being on the same page as their "provider" who coddles to each demand for organic purity they think they are getting.

Get real for a change and reread that previous post just above. Figure out how many hours it would take to generate that 50,000 Kwh you claim your farm consumes a year. You won't be running manyay aeration fans on solar panels; and you sure as hell aren't going to be getting any cheques from Sask Power for 11.23 cents per Kwh from the utility. In fact as I've made clear more than once....under net metering there are no cheques....the meter is always reset to zero on each anniversary date and not one cent is ever rebated.

Under your scenario...it won't matter if electricity is $10.00 per Kwh or 1000.00 per Kwh.

For everyone else it will be a certainly be important.

[oneoff]

Once you start quoting the Bible; it becomes fair game to directly quote from the Boyd Solar website

Quote
The total installed cost for a Boomer system would be close to $ 10.00 per watt with a ground mounted array at about 60 M from the building. As we can see here, in a quality, properly sized system that is professionally installed, the cost of the batteries and the racking are the 2 most expensive items and account for about ½ of the total cost. (This is one of the main reasons why people cheap out on batteries and racking). The cost of the solar modules is actually only 11% of the total. It is also the reason why the price of systems is unlikely to drop as the “technology” items do not account for the major portion of the system cost, and with increased code and regulatory costs, the price will likely just increase.

Unquote.

So what is really needed is a skyhook to suspend those panels; and an air battery in the clouds. As the website states (and as any reasonable person would admit); it isn't just next to free solar panels; nortaxing somebody for the costs and spinning hype about how the world is drastically ruined and has to drastically change to bring fix the single problem of increasing CO2 levels

. Its that prices of all energy have already increased; and the "price will likely just increase" a lot more. We'll lose what we depend on and Western Canada in particular will suffer just like it did under the National Energy Policy; but this time through LA wingnuts complaining about the thousand plus oil wells in city limits and "Injecting HCL acid" and a "cocktail" of chemicals down them; and dirty tarsands; and unclean coal that can't and won't be burned in Canada and pipelines that are so horrible environmental disasters and animal cruelty and red meat faults and chemical contamination of foods and GMO frankenstein nightmares and all medical ailments due to man made chemicals but not 10 billion souls by year 2050 ; nor everyone continuing to live lives of leisure; little required labor and hopping the globe on vacations and excursions as suits everyone's pleasure.

[oneoff]

All you need to know is that Volts times amps equals watts. And further a 7.5 HP aeration fan takes 5300 some watts to run for an hour (5.3Kwh) Run it through the night too and it spins that meter to an extra 127 some odd Kwh's for the day

The fridge and deep freeze need to turn; the welder runs off a 50 plus amp breaker at at least 240 volts; and you soon get the idea that its big bucks to rely on solar as the moon waxes and wanes.

Generators cost more to run than paying anything any utility dares to charge. Coal oil lamps are a poor substitute as is any other form of poor lighting.

C'mon lets admit that most don't know the difference in specs between a solar panels rated output (under ideal sunlight conditions) and the actual useful electricity produced on a yearly basis; let alone when aging batteries; deteriorated or compromised radiation reaching the silicon layers; inverters, controllers and inefficiencies (waste heat) produced by motors ; lights and myriad of appliances we have come to enjoy and depend upon.

Flying with turkeys.

[oneoff]

There are a couple other things to know about electricity.

As you get using (or producing) some significant amounts (and 50,000 Kwh is approaching that ceiling)...you everyonne really should familiarize themselves with 3 phase power. Now it really helps if somebody has already paid for that significant upgrade; but none the less; even if 3 phase power is close by it going to be a 10,000 dollar bill or two or three..

So the moral is that you should give credit to dirty oil for having that option close by. It will also come in really handy for all those acres of completely clean solar footprint. You see supplying power is best done by using 3 or 4 or 5 wires all according to the newest electrical code. It may even be pointed out that mounting sails on roofs that were never designed with even the thought of wind, snow or structural requirement of National Building codes of weight and square meter of obstructions are already a concern of 25 year plans and subject to engineers drawing in many jurisdictions. LOL But cost is no object and the base of 125% subsidy and rebates on someone else's dime or deficit has already crossed some minds Again LOL.

You'll learn about what clean power is too. It also means minimum harmonics and a power factor of 0.95 (leading or lagging) and how transformers; especially when not loaded to rated capacity and all non resistive loads like motors are deal breakers in the quest to get that bidirectional meter installed.

Correct me if I'm wrong...but don't say I'm to blame for it being a long time before PV or anything else becomes easy for any but the most dedicated to get into the energy supply business.