An interesting article putting climate change hoccus pocus in perspective

[Klause]

[URL="https://friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/FoS%20Pre-industrial%20CO2.pdf"]Have a Read[/URL]


Here's the thing....


Energy can never be created nor destroyed.

The carbon that is now a fossil fuel was once a living organism... We may cycle and change chemical makeups but the basic energy will always be there. Carbon will change forms, but what was here when the earth was created, will be here when the earth is destroyed.



I realize people will discredit that paper's author... however he has a few good points...

1. Climate change "theory" has never been subjected to scientific process... it was a "theory" and everyone ran with it.


2. Proof that the planet was far hotter at one time is pretty evident... We have OIL in the muskeg of northern Alberta.... which means at one point it was HOT enough on this planet to have flaura and fauna of a tropical nature up there.


3. All of the "models" are run through computer algorithms.... they can be manipulated at will.... If one looks at raw data, and super-imposes these "models" over top of them, one can see what I'm talking about.


4. No one is disputing the climate is changing. It always has changed. It always will change. The universe is enormous, earth is enormous. All of humanity is like an anthill... oblivious of anything further than a few hundred feet from the hill....

5. Polar Ice cap myth - as we all have witnessed, water expands when frozen. If the polar ice caps melted, the total volume of water is less than the volume of ice. What does this mean? Well it means if you have a bucket half full of water, and a piece of ice floating about an inch above it, when that ice melts, the water will be an inch below the top rim... (Archimedes' Principle) Now, before jumping on me, yes there's a small wrinkle... we're dealing with an ocean full of salt water and ice can't contain much salt, freshwater is lower in density... and when the ice is water, the water will warm which as we all know liquids expand at higher temperatures.... However, the rate of expansion... and the density decrease... when taken together are changes of 0.3mm/yr at the high end...


I appreciate scientific opinions and like discussing stuff like this, but I'm a skeptic until proven otherwise...


Think of this.... If we as a human civilization lived in the last ice age... as it was retracting... Most of our country was under ice.... We are definitely better off now than we would have been back then


How do we not know that we'd be better off if the planet was 10 degrees warmer than it is now?

Consider this... nobody has done the math as to how much energy would be saved if the northern hemisphere didn't have to heat their homes, businesses, and every other structure.


In addition, I'm surprised the environmental conscious on here have never (that I've seen) discussed the creation of liquid hydrocarbons in a reactor from CO2 and water.... [URL="http://phys.org/news/2016-02-proven-one-step-co2-liquid-hydrocarbon.html"]http://phys.org/news/2016-02-proven-one-step-co2-liquid-hydrocarbon.html[/URL] Theoretically could solve two problems ("rising" sea levels, and "rising" CO2 levels), with far lower capital costs to the general population... And far easier on wildlife (wind turbines and solar steam plants kill an awful lot of birds and deter other wild life from the areas where they are built)


There's also creating hydrogen from wind, and powering engines with it (which I think is really neat!)...

Imagine turning hydrogen into a super dense metal and using "solid" fuel for planes, ships... inert, and extremely energy dense. Curious to see some of the experiment results out of the Z Pulsed Power Facility in the next few years.



In closing, I think there is much we can, and have, and will do to protect the environment. We need to conserve resources, use them wisely... Be efficient. And we are moving forward always. Economics and the reality of the human condition force that (one-up-man-ship)

I think governments imposing taxes doesn't help any of this... Neither does government creating policies for "clean energy" which backfire - neejerk reactions that simply snowball.

[Retired]

I think where all you : climate change deniers : seem to miss the point is when you go back millions of yrs to point out the world has been changing all along you are right ,BUT we are talking the last 1 mabey 200 yr and that is the difference and never in history has that much carbon been released in such a short period of time. Im sure you can dig up someone with an answer , but what more credibility has he or anyone individual over a majority concensus of scintentists.
I know you all want to live the good life and dont rile the water but there is such a thing as to much of a good thing. Just look at waistlines to see the results of over indulgence.

[stonepicker]

The majority of scientists once thought the world was flat.

[perfecho]

And here is another good one....we are to trust science when they say desiccation on grain seeds used for food is of no issue.......;-)

[sumdumguy]

Man is prone to calculate his 'benefit' before acting or pontificating. Like in Gore, Suzuki and thousands of "scientists" and nations not to mention solar cel, windmill, carbon capture, electric car, electric buses, emission equipment, def manufacturers and I could go on for a long time. Think there is self-interest?

[Klause]

I think where all you : climate change deniers : seem to miss the point is when you go back millions of yrs to point out the world has been changing all along you are right ,BUT we are talking the last 1 mabey 200 yr and that is the difference and never in history has that much carbon been released in such a short period of time. Im sure you can dig up someone with an answer , but what more credibility has he or anyone individual over a majority concensus of scintentists.
I know you all want to live the good life and dont rile the water but there is such a thing as to much of a good thing. Just look at waistlines to see the results of over indulgence.

Proof positive you didn't read the links I posted.


1700 and 1800s 500+ppm of co2 in the atmosphere... more than today


Where you around for millions of years? How do you know that much carbon has never been released? A meteor strike or gamma ray burst that set the atmosphere on fire and destroyed all living beings would release vastly more carbon.... speaking of which that's kind of the theory behind how hydrocarbons first came to exist.


There is a consensus the climate is changing. That's not the issue the issue is pseudoscience claims as fact that humanity is the cause of climate change.





See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event




Humanity has created a huge amount of wealth over the centuries and millenia... the entire human species... in every culture there have been those who want to overthrow the status quo and bring about change.


However never in humanity's existence have we tried to destroy ourselves... food production energy production infrastructure everything has opponents humanity is in decline.

[ado089]

They keep moving the goal posts. First it was global warming, then it was climate change, now it climate disruption. We've been ringing this bell long enough to see model after model fail. Even the claim that 98% of scientists agree on agw is misleading. That claim come from one IPCC survey where they asked if they believed humans had an influence on climate but they made no mention of the magnitude or consequences of climate change. We need to work about running out of hydrocarbons before we need to worry about their impact on the environment.

[farmaholic]

Who knows for sure that oil reserves were EVER created from flora and fauna and not just a result of chemical reactions within the earth? Aren't most oil deposits a bit too deep to be related to surface conditions how ever many eons ago? Coal maybe, but oil reserves? Maybe oil is a form of condensate, gases and vapor from deep within the molten earth that condense when they rise or permeate to the cooler outer layers of the earth where they pool.

Humans think they know it all.....and are the true cancer of the earth!!!

[seabass]

Found something our hot tub service guy told me interesting. He said that in the last 20 years plus he has noticed that the temperature of the water coming out of wells has dropped by 15 degrees. When he started he said that the water was usually in the 50 plus degrees now alot of the water is 40 or lower. He can't say for sure that it is because of climate change but something weird is going on.

[sumdumguy]

How did the world become so fixated on this scam? What a waste!

[tweety]

And here is another good one....we are to trust science when they say desiccation on grain seeds used for food is of no issue.......;-)

It is of no issue. Now please read some real science for a change and don't rely on naturalNews.com for all your information.

[Hamloc]

Perfecho I do share your concern of pre-harvest application of round up leaving residues, having said that just got my germination test back on my Penhold wheat and it tested 95% germ. This crop was pre harvested. I think the problem arises when it is applied to early.

As for oil coming from plants, not sure of exact depths but I believe some wells are over 3000 metres deep, I can't see that coming from decomposing plant life. Those who have worked on the rigs could better answer the depth issue.

[perfecho]

Hamloc, IMHO, science is far beyond me.. there are amazing strides made with amazing people, however some things you should trust your gut....that has kept mankind alive through many years of existence.
Interesting though, on how timing can make such a difference at that stage.
Have a great Christmas!

[sumdumguy]

Maybe if you spray really early but I would be careful. As for Round Up pre-harvest, I am wondering if germination tests tell the whole story. I have tried sprouting and growing out different seeds under grow lights. Some germinate but lack the vigour to continue and shrivel up and die. Side by side non-sprayed grow normally. Have you tried to grow potatoes from the grocery store? The sprout, start to grow roots, then the roots become malformed and that's the end of the story. Take it for what its worth. Do you have a grow light?

[dmlfarmer]

I too was a climate change sceptic and a follower of Tim Ball. I could not see how even if all the glaciers and polar ice caps melted how sea levels could rise like was being predicted. But I was ignoring science. I did not consider the thermal expansion of the oceans.

But then agriculture came under attack for GMOs and use of herbicides. I believe in the science of modern agriculture. But if I believe science for this why was I rejecting science of climate change.

So instead of just listening to the denier side I began to look critically at both sides and there is a whole lot more proof of climate change occurring than of not.

Excellent website that gives lists 9 scientifically proven impacts already of climate change. And it supports it arguments with real data, not just models.
[URL="http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/"]http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/[/URL]