Estevan considered for solar power

[oneoff]

Teet No Comment. Please go fight with yourself

[burnt]

Teet No Comment. Please go fight with yourself

Likely the most wise response.

Except for the fact that this thread only further exposed the utter untruthfulness, un-affordability and unreliability of the Liberal and NDP's love affair with "green" energy, its greatest lesson was to reinforce the adage that you shouldn't wrestle with a pig - you both get covered in sh** and the pig likes it.

[tweety]

Fair enough. I'll accept that you won't answer.

[oneoff]

Attended "Manitoba Hydro associates" seminar presentation in Brandon today on solar energy.

Intransigent Sask Power probably doesn't have it's figures correct according to a presenter who does seem to quickly understand what is possible and what is outside reasonable parameters.

Still no word back today about confirmation or denial on this front from Sask Power...and its a safe bet they wouldn't last long in a real free enterprise business with their response times; staff so really ignorant; poor business relationship skills and seemingly no one can multiply simple figures.

Really brings into question their media relations department and the engineering staff ; since not promptly correcting one error/faulty logic/beligerant episode creates a perception that this is how that corporation might be doing all business.

On the good news front from Brandon; the salesmen/installer liner upper/Manitoba Hydro liason mainly used an example of a 30 KW capacity system and dwelt on pitching a $1000.00 rebate per KW solar panel capacity; fixed tilted system that dovetails with bi directional meters; sort of 20 to 150 Kw typical capacity and payout of order of 7 years for business type installation that can take advantage of 50% on income tax depreciation and GST reimbursements. Residential installments take almost twice as long to pay out . Manitoba hydro incentives of up to 55 to 60% of installed cost and 7.625 cent reimbursement for excess electrical production at end of 12 months.

Its a fact that winter months are times when credits are burned up and summer and fall are when the bidirectional meter "spins" in the preferred direction.

The problem of fires on roof mounted systems was capably answered by pointing out that all new solar PV panels have a Built in isolator that disconnects the DC output at the panel (maybe even within pane)l; but model they had on display was with a discrete separate module.

The way this was explained was that a DC arc doesn't tend to extinguish itself (wants to act like a welder and once struck it doesn't want to extinguish itself). But a panel that has the positive and negative DC leads not connected can produce no power. The now incorporated additional isolator addresses that problem; and old panels may have to be retrofitted.

Now someone else in the crowd asked if the sales company had heard that the Electrical Code was going to be changed to address this problem. The response was that the sales company had not heard that report; but would certainly check. My comment will be that if those isolaters have a CSA tag and each and every other piece is up to code that all will be well. If not; there won't be any connection to any utility grid and further delays will ensue.



I looked at the disconnect and it didn't resemble any Cooper fuses that had been suggested to do this job


It should be pointed out the company boasted maybe 500,000 watts (500 Kw) of installed solar PV in Manitoba; but they also said that in a couple of days they expect that the first systems will have passed the electrical inspection (required before anyone gets a bidirectional meter plugged in). With short order they are projecting their company will have electricians having a Mega watt capacity ready for commissioning.

Cost / Kwh about 3 1/2 cents, about 1.2 million Kwh in 30 years for a 30 Kw system (Stand to be corrected but think that's what slides said Degradation of panels over time is a fact of life and examples 45,221 output in year 1 goes to 44.995 in year 2 to 40,095 in year 25 and 39,103 in year 30

Manitoba Hydro going up 4% a year in Manitoba and consensus was that its expensive and probably electrical costs will only increase at more rapid rate in Manitoba. Oh and big big debt with electrical Manitoba Hydro according to Manitobians


So much for any propaganda that all other adjoining provinces need to do is tap into abundant cheap Manitoba Hydro propaganda.


They a re selling that having your own independent solar resource locks in your electrical costs with next to no risk ..

They did omit to ever mention the cost of connection to the grid being depended to supply your power particularly in winter monthe; also mentioned that NASA and other data is pretty accurate n a yearly basis bout is "a fair bit different on higher side of max production in summer type mounts; but offset by more disappointing output in winter. Solar panel tilt 45 degrees in their installations. Roof mounts preferred in older already installed installations; but opposite in installations now awaiting final electrical inspection.

One meter per account is now a hindrance according to some in crowd ; but are awaiting hopeful Manitoba Hydro policy change.


Manitoba Hydro created this business for us was a comment made by sales . The 1000 per installed Kw capacity is actually more lucrative that Manitoba Hydro anticipated because solar PV per installed watt is now about $3.00 and Manitoba Hydro was expecting it to be $4.00. But program is in place for at least another year (forget exact deadline)


Good presentation Good questions and truth is that sales pitches; economic incentives; public interest;and bottom line economics are a wining combination.

It should be remembered this is designed by Manitoba Hydro to balance your own production and consumption to net zero (or close) on a yearly basis; not to provide windfalls to investos (Ontario maybe for example). This is accomplished by Manitoba Hydro providing customer with their historical energy bills and dictating about what capacity will be approved to roughly balance out their utility bill to zero over the year.

Good presentation; good input and worth attending.

Not proof read yet. Got other things to do.

[oneoff]

No economics in dual tracking system. Complicated and so on

[burnt]

To rap it up -

[URL="https://video.fyzd1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t42.1790-2/16137587_637313769773792_5028083892343537664_n.mp4 ?efg=eyJ2ZW5jb2RlX3RhZyI6InN2ZV9zZCJ9&oh=ed96a75d0 2b2d6d7881c51044b63f313&oe=587F0067#_=_"]https://video.fyzd1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t42.1790-2/16137587_637313769773792_5028083892343537664_n.mp4 ?efg=eyJ2ZW5jb2RlX3RhZyI6InN2ZV9zZCJ9&oh=ed96a75d0 2b2d6d7881c51044b63f313&oe=587F0067#_=_[/URL]

[oneoff]

Also wrapping it up. This answer just in 01/17/2017 4:14:58
Sorry, just to clarify I missed a zero. The estimated production would be 14,000MWh per year.

Final comment; in a respectful; but disappointed reply I left open an invitation for Sask Power to actually be helpful in allowing access to Sask Power's "Special Projects" dep't (if it exists) for oil well "associated gas" CHP (Combined Heat and Power) which Sask Power claims to support.

Now such a project could be near to 100 % of Rated capacity capability; doesn't cost millions per Mw capacity; utilizes 100% wasted flare gas; provides up to nearly 100% efficiency when waste heat is put to useful purposes; can actually be free or maybe even you get paid to take the waste; does something useful with all that is rarely ever utilized when volumes are considered insignificant or not economical usable for useful purposes and is even advertised by COOP refineries as components of "green energy"
And it is estimated that 100Kw installed capacity could produce 876,000Kwh /year of electrical energy...which is 0.876 Mwh of energy made available each year from a 10 to 20,000 or less investment using existing infrastructure.

We'll see if the ice has been broken; the pigs load and no one gets covered in s#&t.

One off out Have a good day.

[tweety]

I looked at the disconnect and it didn't resemble any Cooper fuses that had been suggested to do this job


That's because a fuse isn't a disconnect. A disconnect is a switch and a fuse protects from overcurrent. Minister of energy should know that.

[oneoff]

Always knew that. Now we both know. Thats good

But sorry you wore me out and we never even got to the interesting stuff


Gotta move on to other things and it took too long to reach what should/coulda/wouldah been agreed to in a nanosecond.

[tweety]

I honestly truly wish i could figure out what your end game is about solar. Yes it costs more. It isn't contigous power. No efficient way to flatten out the peaks and temporarily store power it does generate. Is sold as 'free' when we all know it isn't. It makes fire fighters lives more dangerous and difficult, even though the solar itself properly fused extremely rarely ever is the cause of fire.

Yet, Sarnia solar farm has chugged on quietly and successfully at 80 MW whose only limitation is the current capability of the grid it is connected to yet pumping power 288 days a year for the last six years. Enbridge says if you there is just enough light to read a book, its pushing on the grid.

So why shut that down or not build anything new? That's all i want to know. No argument or debate required. Been asking for several pages, so finish this.

[chuckChuck]

Sounds like the presentation in Brandon was good. Manitoba offers a better program. SaskPower will rebate only 20%. I think it is in the range of being a decent investment. Installed costs are around $3.60 per watt in SK. One Alberta company said around $3.00 per watt.

Using flared gas is a good idea. I think some of the oil companies have some gas generators going. I wonder if the push to reduce methane emissions will push the use of more gas generators where gas lines aren't available? Is raw gas always usable?

[Hamloc]

Chuck2 3.60 a watt x 10000 watts = 36000 dollars. This system on average should produce 1000 kwh per month over the course of a year. 12000 kwh x 11.2 cents a kilowatt = 1344 dollars per year. 36000/1344 = 26.78 years. Yup that works lol. In Alberta a farmer can get 25% of his system payed for but off the top of my head I can't remember the maximum. Obviously will have to be subsidized to get people to do it. Either subsidized rates or subsidized installation costs. Is this an important use of our taxes?

[tweety]

Hamloc have you considered Geothermal for your shop? Depending on the temperature you want the shop to be, that may be a much better answer then solar to electric heat. Its a lot harder to heat a house then just warming a shop to about 5 degrees with lines in the floor. Contact CSI at lakeland college for solid information.

That's the plan for my shop. Solar can turn the pumps when they can, grid when not. Not about saving a dollar, this stuff is kinda fun.

[chuckChuck]

Hamloc, One installer in Alberta said $3.00 per watt installed for 20Kw system last November. So for 10Kw it might be a bit more.

So just for the sake of argument lets say $30,000 investment for 10Kw. I put a 10 Kw system into the solar calculator at Estevan Sask, and the output with a system that is seasonally tilted but for the calculators purpose is fixed at 45 degrees output is 18730 Kwh per year times 11.8 Kwh cents in Saskatchewan and revenue is about $ 2200 per year.

But remember the price of power has been going up 3% per year so by year 30 the estimated price will be 25.4 cents per Kwh and you will be earning the equivalent of $4757.00 per year. The panels lose some ability to generate as much power so you will be generating less than 18730 kwh.

But by year 10 you are already earning the equivalent $3000 per year.

I think Boyd Solar estimated the 30 year cost of Solar PV is 10 cents per Kwh so all you are doing is locking in electricity prices for 30 years at about 10 cents per kwh which is cheaper that what Saskpower is charging now.

Alberta pays differently so it might not work there.

[tweety]

To get some scope of just how big installations are lately have a look at the current top ten. Wow!

[URL="http://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/top-10-solar-photovoltaic-plants-in-the-world"]http://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/top-10-solar-photovoltaic-plants-in-the-world[/URL]

China has one at 1280 MW by the Longyangxia dam. Makes the last 8 pages about a 10 MW shard here in SK a complete waste of energy reading.