Scary

[burnt]

Hey Burnt,
Before speculating why not wait and see who the shooters are and what their motivation was.

No one is saying or advocating unrestricted immigration. Refugees and immigrants are screened and vetted before they are allowed to come to or stay in Canada!

Perhaps you don't get the details. Or you don't pay attention. What is wrong with some of you posters? Are you into "alternative facts"?

Chucky, see my edited post - but in case you don't want to check back, here are the names - Alexandre Bissonnette and Mohamed Khadir.

Whether home-grown or imported types, (looks like it might be one of each) they are the natural product of Islam.

Do you have locks on your doors?

[chuckChuck]

Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?

March 18, 20103:20 AM ET
Heard on All Things Considered

Barbara Bradley Hagerty

Religious historian Philip Jenkins says scriptures from the Bible are more violent than those from the Quran.

As the hijackers boarded the airplanes on Sept. 11, 2001, they had a lot on their minds. And if they were following instructions, one of those things was the Quran.

In preparation for the suicide attack, their handlers had told them to meditate on two chapters of the Quran in which God tells Muslims to "cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers."

"Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them," Allah instructs the Prophet Muhammad (Quran, 9:5). He continues: "Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites! ... Hell shall be their home, an evil fate."

When Osama bin Laden declared war on the West in 1996, he cited the Quran's command to "strike off" the heads of unbelievers. More recently, U.S. Army Maj. Nidal Hasan lectured his colleagues about jihad, or "holy war," and the Quran's exhortation to fight unbelievers and bring them low. Hasan is accused of killing 13 people at Fort Hood, Texas, last year.

Given this violent legacy, religion historian Philip Jenkins decided to compare the brutality quotient of the Quran and the Bible.

Defense Vs. Total Annihilation

"Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible," Jenkins says.

Jenkins is a professor at Penn State University and author of two books dealing with the issue: the recently published Jesus Wars, and Dark Passages , which has not been published but is already drawing controversy.

Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible.

Philip Jenkins, author of 'Jesus Wars'

Violence in the Quran, he and others say, is largely a defense against attack.

"By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane," he says. "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide."

It is called herem, and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

When Saul failed to do that, God took away his kingdom.

"In other words," Jenkins says, "Saul has committed a dreadful sin by failing to complete genocide. And that passage echoes through Christian history. It is often used, for example, in American stories of the confrontation with Indians — not just is it legitimate to kill Indians, but you are violating God's law if you do not."

Jenkins notes that the history of Christianity is strewn with herem. During the Crusades in the Middle Ages, the Catholic popes declared the Muslims Amalekites. In the great religious wars in the 16th, 17th and 19th centuries, Protestants and Catholics each believed the other side were the Amalekites and should be utterly destroyed.

'Holy Amnesia'

But Jenkins says, even though the Bible is violent, Christianity and Judaism today are not for the most part.

"What happens in all religions as they grow and mature and expand, they go through a process of forgetting of the original violence, and I call this a process of holy amnesia," Jenkins says.

Jenkins, author of Jesus Wars, says that violence in the Quran is largely a defense against attack.

They make the violence symbolic: Wiping out the enemy becomes wiping out one's own sins. Jenkins says that until recently, Islam had the same sort of holy amnesia, and many Muslims interpreted jihad, for example, as an internal struggle, not physical warfare.

Andrew Bostom calls this analysis "preposterous." Bostom, editor of The Legacy of Jihad, says there's a major difference between the Bible, which describes the destruction of an enemy at a point in time, and the Quran, which urges an ongoing struggle to defeat unbelievers.

"It's an aggressive doctrine," he says. "The idea is to impose Islamic law on the globe."

Take suicide attacks, he says — a tactic that Muslim radicals have used to great effect in the U.S., Iraq, Afghanistan and the Middle East. It's true that suicide from depression is forbidden in Islam — but Bostom says the Quran and the Hadith, or the sayings of Muhammad, do allow self-destruction for religious reasons.

"The notion of jihad martyrdom is extolled in the Quran, Quran verse 9:1-11. And then in the Hadith, it's even more explicit. This is the highest form of jihad — to kill and to be killed in acts of jihad."

'Out Of Context'

That may be the popular notion of jihad, says Waleed El-Ansary, but it's the wrong one. El-Ansary, who teaches Islamic studies at the University of South Carolina, says the Quran explicitly condemns religious aggression and the killing of civilians. And it makes the distinction between jihad — legal warfare with the proper rules of engagement — and irjaf, or terrorism.

"All of those types of incidences — [Sept. 11], Maj. Nidal Hasan and so forth — those are all examples of irjaf, not jihad," he says. According to the Quran, he says, those who practice irjaf "are going to hell."

So what's going on here? After all, we all have images of Muslim radicals flying planes into buildings, shooting up soldiers at Fort Hood, trying to detonate a bomb on an airplane on Christmas Day. How to reconcile a peaceful Quran with these violent acts?

El-Ansary says that in the past 30 years, there's been a perfect storm that has created a violent strain of Islam. The first is political: frustration at Western intervention in the Muslim world. The second is intellectual: the rise of Wahhabi Islam, a more fundamentalist interpretation of Islam subscribed to by Osama bin Laden. El-Ansary says fundamentalists have distorted Islam for political purposes.

"Basically what they do is they take verses out of context and then use that to justify these egregious actions," he says.

El-Ansary says we are seeing more religious violence from Muslims now because the Islamic world is far more religious than is the West. Still, Jenkins says Judeo-Christian cultures shouldn't be smug. The Bible has plenty of violence.

"The scriptures are still there, dormant, but not dead," he says, "and they can be resurrected at any time. Witness the white supremacists who cite the murderous Phineas when calling for racial purity, or an anti-abortion activist when shooting a doctor who performs abortions.

In the end, the scholars can agree on one thing: The DNA of early Judaism, Christianity and Islam code for a lot of violence. Whether they can evolve out of it is another thing altogether.

[burnt]

I'm surprised that you actually posted that because it does little to improve anyone's perception of Islam. It reiterates that violence is merely a natural outgrowth of Mohammad's teaching.

Contrast that to what Christ taught his followers and you will see why the Muslim religion will always be juxtaposed against the rest of the world, especially those who know and follow Christ.

[stonepicker]

Definition of chuck chuck: a complete inability to form an opinion on his own, also known as cut and paste syndrome. You prob. don't even know that there is a new and old testament in the bible, why don't you try reading the new testament and the life of jesus ( start with the book of luke ) and gain some insight. I don't see christians bombing or killing other people in this day and age, do you? I see christians getting killed by muslims on a regular basis though. Amazing.

[binthere]

it would be funny if it was not so sad. the sjws on here preach how we should evolve from the evils of fossil fuels to miraculous alternative energy. yet cannot perceive the evil of not evolving from an evil ideology that is out dated yet stringently followed and ruthlessly imposed. old testament lessons were extreme in nature which is what led to the ten commandments in the new testament. now no matter what you choose to believe even if you are atheist following the ten commandments would be to any rational person the smart thing to adhere to. but its not in the koran so your labelled as an apostate for leaving or a hypocrite for not supporting their ideology. more than likely this is what led to the shooting in quebec.

[blackpowder]

sjws ??

[Oliver88]

sjws ??

Social justice warriors.

[burnt]

"Iran is condemning the deadly shooting at a Quebec mosque, calling it "inhumane and criminal."" (AP)

That would be funny coming from Iran if it weren't so sickeningly sad. Iran has recently surpassed the record for "criminal" executions of those who don't comply with the "rules".

[newguy]

85 % of the acts of terrorism in United States is carried out by a U.S. citizen.Just heard that Stat on TV today.Trump is feuling division and the Jerry Springer fist fight is coming right up.

[grassfarmer]

Other news sources are also reporting the attackers are Muslim.

What are you going to do with that, grassy? chucky? forage?

Chucky, see my edited post - but in case you don't want to check back, here are the names - Alexandre Bissonnette and Mohamed Khadir.

Whether home-grown or imported types, (looks like it might be one of each) they are the natural product of Islam.

In any event, this is what we are importing with Islam. Alexandre Bissonnette and Mohamed Khadir - terrorism of both the home-grown and imported type, but all in the name of Islam.

Someone might look foolish if predictions like these are incorrect.

Quite a few of you looking foolish now - rampant Islamaphobia that leads you to jump to the wrong conclusion that anyone with a name of middle eastern origin must be a terrorist. Funny how Burnt was just lecturing people about their paranoia earlier in this thread. So blind with hatred and prejudice that the idea that muslims would commit a mass slaughter of fellow muslims worshipping in a mosque didn't seem unlikely to you. Doesn't lend much to your credibility as posters contributing to such debates.
And then there is the obnoxious 15444 from the woods of Northern Ontario spreading his different level of racial hatred and ignorance. I hope the administration of Agriville will step up and ban this poster for repeatedly breaching several of the posting rules on this site and bringing it into disrepute. Not just that but bringing Canadian agriculture and farmers as a whole into disrepute.

[tweety]

You have no fear of Islam grassy?

[burnt]

Quite a few of you looking foolish now - rampant Islamaphobia that leads you to jump to the wrong conclusion that anyone with a name of middle eastern origin must be a terrorist. Funny how Burnt was just lecturing people about their paranoia earlier in this thread. So blind with hatred and prejudice that the idea that muslims would commit a mass slaughter of fellow muslims worshipping in a mosque didn't seem unlikely to you. Doesn't lend much to your credibility as posters contributing to such debates.
And then there is the obnoxious 15444 from the woods of Northern Ontario spreading his different level of racial hatred and ignorance. I hope the administration of Agriville will step up and ban this poster for repeatedly breaching several of the posting rules on this site and bringing it into disrepute. Not just that but bringing Canadian agriculture and farmers as a whole into disrepute.

Wrong again, grassy. The report came from AP that there were two involved in the shooting. So if you want to go blame gaming, you had better go after them for causing the reaction.

When are you and chucky going to answer the very simple question - do you have locks on your doors?

And how do you read Iran's statement in light of their human rights record?

Squirm away there buddy!

[sumdumguy]

Grassy, do you think that anyone in their right mind would condone murder, mass murder at that? Those were sons, fathers, husbands and grandfathers who didn't deserve the wrath of a lunatic. The fanatiscm that is gripping today's masses could fuel more hatrid. We must respect our neighbours government as we would want ours to be respected Gressfarmer.

[grassfarmer]

Other news sources are also reporting the attackers are Muslim.

...In any event, this is what we are importing with Islam. Alexandre Bissonnette and Mohamed Khadir - terrorism of both the home-grown and imported type, but all in the name of Islam.

.
...Whether home-grown or imported types, (looks like it might be one of each) they are the natural product of Islam.

Blame the first quote on AP but the others were your foolish speculation based on your anti-Islam prejudices. Not that its any business of yours but I do have locks on my doors but generally don't use them. That wouldn't change if I had an influx of muslims or refugees into my community. I don't suffer from paranoia.

Grassy, do you think that anyone in their right mind would condone murder?.... The fanatiscm that is gripping today's masses could fuel more hatrid. We must respect our neighbours government as we would want ours to be respected Gressfarmer.

The 15444 character was indicating he looked forward to both the PM and the Ontario premier being shot so I guess that proves him not of sound mind? I agree with you that we are in a dangerous period of raised tensions which could fuel more hatred - that was the topic on which I initiated this post. I respect our neighbour's choice of democratically elected Government but I do not respect the actions of that Government when they are throwing fuel on the fire of division, racism and prejudice.

[sumdumguy]

There seems to be something very odd about the news reports regarding the suspect/suspects. Some articles say at least 2 masked gunmen, dressed in black entered the mosque. Now the cops say one was just a witness-there was only one gunman, but witnesses still say there were at least two. This is confusing.