Costsof renewable power link may not work

[tweety]

Tweety, the population of China is 1.357 billion or about 55 times that of Australia's at 24.351 million. Therefore Australia's 3 billion dollar investment dwarfs China's on a per capita basis!

As for coal power generation it is not subsidized as far as I know, in fact I would say it is penalized.

Australia 50k average wage (82k A$), china $4700. Not dwarfed at all.

Why would you need to subsidize burning something?

[Hamloc]

Tweety Chuck2 was talking about how much the fossil fuel industry is subsidized, hence my comment on whether or not coal was subsidized.

[tweety]

What about coal? Canada consumes over 30 million tonnes per year. While we currently export over half our domestic production, the IMF study only considered externalized costs within our own country. They found that the coal industry receives $4.5 billion in annual subsides -- almost all of this is un-priced carbon and sulfur dioxide emissions. This generous largesse towards the dirtiest of fuels is about four times what the CBC receives in public support every year.

[URL="https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/05/15/Canadas-34-Billion-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies/"]https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/05/15/Canadas-34-Billion-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies/[/URL]

The IMF claims all totaled the fossil fuel industry realizes 34 Billion $ in subsidies. That buys a lot of solar cells now doesn't it? Nope, lets squeeze renewables out because we can't "afford" it.

[oneoff]

They found that the coal industry receives $4.5 billion in annual subsides -- almost all of this is un-priced carbon and sulfur dioxide emissions. This generous largesse towards the dirtiest of fuels is about four times what the CBC receives in public support every year.

.

"almost all of this is un-priced carbon and sulfur emissions"

eh!

Just what government gets off in unilaterally deciding what is worthwhile; what is important and what something's value is??

And now it seems the answer is one prime minister or one president.

The electorate will one day soon decide that facing starving to death (or close to it)...even once in a lifetime is too close a call. An unreliable electrical or heating system just isn't tolerable either...and especially coming from dictators who have a propensity to first look after their own pleasures....my prediction is that tolerance for current decrees will not be lasting.

[tweety]

In case you haven't noticed Oneoff, all of them.

[chuckChuck]

US and Australian taxpayers pay billions a year to fund coal – report

Ending subsidies, that amount to almost a quarter of the sale price in some cases, would hugely reduce carbon emissions, new research reveals


Damian Carrington
@dpcarrington

Wednesday 16 September 2015 11.03 BST
Last modified on Friday 11 November 2016 12.47 GMT

Coal subsidies are costing US and Australian taxpayers billions of dollars a year, according to a new report.

The research examined the subsidies given to coal production in the US’s largest coal field, the Powder River Basin, and found they totalled $2.9bn (£1.9bn) a year. This equates to $8 per tonne, almost 25% of the sale price.

Ending the subsidies would lead to cuts in coal use equivalent to shutting up to 32 coal-fired power stations, the researchers found, leading to a large reduction in carbon emissions.

The report also analysed Australia’s exporting of coal for power stations in Asia and found these came to $1.3bn a year, or $4 a tonne. Ending these subsidies would cut demand by up to 7%, a smaller impact than in the US because coal users could buy supplies from other countries.
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“The fossil fuel industry has gamed energy market consumers, with numerous subsidies evident over the long term,” said Tim Buckley, at the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis, who worked on the report. “Any discussion of cost competitiveness of renewable energy and energy efficiency needs to take into account the decades of extensive subsidies evident for the coal industry and that, in many cases, remain in place today.”

Luke Sussams, senior researcher at Carbon Tracker Initiative, also part of the research team, said: “Policy makers concerned about climate change and a level playing field in energy markets should look to take coordinated action to remove the distortions to production these subsidies create.”

The subsidies given to coal companies included tax breaks, cheap leases, government-funded infrastructure including railways and ports and allowing inadequate funding of clean-up operation after mining ends.
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The G20 nations pledged to end fossil fuel subsidies in 2009, but little action has been taken. However, falling oil and coal prices in the last year have seen some countries starting to reduce subsidies.

A recent study by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) took into account not just direct subsidies but also the cost to nations of the damage caused by air pollution and global warming. It estimated coal, oil and gas were being subsidised by $5.3trn a year, more than the total health spending of all the world’s governments. Much of the cost is due to the illness and death caused by air pollution.

“Eliminating coal subsidies in the Powder River Basin and throughout the world, is an obvious, no-regrets climate strategy,” said Doug Koplow, of Earth Track and another member of the research team.

The new report, called Assessing Thermal Coal Production Subsidies, was produced by the Carbon Tracker Initiative, Energy Transition Advisors, the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis and Earth Track.

[Hamloc]

So then Tweety what you are saying is that fossil fuel industries are subsidized due to the lack of paying for carbon emissions. Are car manufacturer's taxed for creating a product that gives off C02 when operated? Is the shipping industry subsidized because they don't pay for C02 created when operated? Is the fertilizer industry subsidized because it doesn't pay for nitrogen emissions that are given off when it's product is put in the soil? Does the lumber industry pay enough for ending the lives of a carbon sink? Are they subsidized? According to your logic almost every industry is subsidized!!!

[chuckChuck]

Fossil fuels subsidised by $10m a minute, says IMF

‘Shocking’ revelation finds $5.3tn subsidy estimate for 2015 is greater than the total health spending of all the world’s governments

Damian Carrington
@dpcarrington

Monday 18 May 2015 14.30 BST
Last modified on Friday 11 November 2016 13.13 GMT

Fossil fuel companies are benefitting from global subsidies of $5.3tn (£3.4tn) a year, equivalent to $10m a minute every day, according to a startling new estimate by the International Monetary Fund.

The IMF calls the revelation “shocking” and says the figure is an “extremely robust” estimate of the true cost of fossil fuels. The $5.3tn subsidy estimated for 2015 is greater than the total health spending of all the world’s governments.

The vast sum is largely due to polluters not paying the costs imposed on governments by the burning of coal, oil and gas. These include the harm caused to local populations by air pollution as well as to people across the globe affected by the floods, droughts and storms being driven by climate change.

Nicholas Stern, an eminent climate economist at the London School of Economics, said: “This very important analysis shatters the myth that fossil fuels are cheap by showing just how huge their real costs are. There is no justification for these enormous subsidies for fossil fuels, which distort markets and damages economies, particularly in poorer countries.”

Lord Stern said that even the IMF’s vast subsidy figure was a significant underestimate: “A more complete estimate of the costs due to climate change would show the implicit subsidies for fossil fuels are much bigger even than this report suggests.”

The IMF, one of the world’s most respected financial institutions, said that ending subsidies for fossil fuels would cut global carbon emissions by 20%. That would be a giant step towards taming global warming, an issue on which the world has made little progress to date.

Ending the subsidies would also slash the number of premature deaths from outdoor air pollution by 50% – about 1.6 million lives a year.

Furthermore, the IMF said the resources freed by ending fossil fuel subsidies could be an economic “game-changer” for many countries, by driving economic growth and poverty reduction through greater investment in infrastructure, health and education and also by cutting taxes that restrict growth.

Another consequence would be that the need for subsidies for renewable energy – a relatively tiny $120bn a year – would also disappear, if fossil fuel prices reflected the full cost of their impacts.

“These [fossil fuel subsidy] estimates are shocking,” said Vitor Gaspar, the IMF’s head of fiscal affairs and former finance minister of Portugal. “Energy prices remain woefully below levels that reflect their true costs.”

David Coady, the IMF official in charge of the report, said: “When the [$5.3tn] number came out at first, we thought we had better double check this!” But the broad picture of huge global subsidies was “extremely robust”, he said. “It is the true cost associated with fossil fuel subsidies.”

The IMF estimate of $5.3tn in fossil fuel subsidies represents 6.5% of global GDP. Just over half the figure is the money governments are forced to spend treating the victims of air pollution and the income lost because of ill health and premature deaths. The figure is higher than a 2013 IMF estimate because new data from the World Health Organisation shows the harm caused by air pollution to be much higher than thought.

Coal is the dirtiest fuel in terms of both local air pollution and climate-warming carbon emissions and is therefore the greatest beneficiary of the subsidies, with just over half the total. Oil, heavily used in transport, gets about a third of the subsidy and gas the rest.

The biggest single source of air pollution is coal-fired power stations and China, with its large population and heavy reliance on coal power, provides $2.3tn of the annual subsidies. The next biggest fossil fuel subsidies are in the US ($700bn), Russia ($335bn), India ($277bn) and Japan ($157bn), with the European Union collectively allowing $330bn in subsidies to fossil fuels.

The costs resulting from the climate change driven by fossil fuel emissions account for subsidies of $1.27tn a year, about a quarter, of the IMF’s total. The IMF calculated this cost using an official US government estimate of $42 a tonne of CO2 (in 2015 dollars), a price “very likely to underestimate” the true cost, according to the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

The direct subsidising of fuel for consumers, by government discounts on diesel and other fuels, account for just 6% of the IMF’s total. Other local factors, such as reduced sales taxes on fossil fuels and the cost of traffic congestion and accidents, make up the rest. The IMF says traffic costs are included because increased fuel prices would be the most direct way to reduce them.

Christiana Figueres, the UN’s climate change chief charged with delivering a deal to tackle global warming at a crunch summit in December, said: “The IMF provides five trillion reasons for acting on fossil fuel subsidies. Protecting the poor and the vulnerable is crucial to the phasing down of these subsidies, but the multiple economic, social and environmental benefits are long and legion.”

Barack Obama and the G20 nations called for an end to fossil fuel subsidies in 2009, but little progress had been made until oil prices fell in 2014. In April, the president of the World Bank, Jim Yong Kim, told the Guardian that it was crazy that governments were still driving the use of coal, oil and gas by providing subsidies. “We need to get rid of fossil fuel subsidies now,” he said.

Reform of the subsidies would increase energy costs but Kim and the IMF both noted that existing fossil fuel subsidies overwhelmingly go to the rich, with the wealthiest 20% of people getting six times as much as the poorest 20% in low and middle-income countries. Gaspar said that with oil and coal prices currently low, there was a “golden opportunity” to phase out subsidies and use the increased tax revenues to reduce poverty through investment and to provide better targeted support.

Subsidy reforms are beginning in dozens of countries including Egypt, Indonesia, Mexico, Morocco and Thailand. In India, subsidies for diesel ended in October 2014. “People said it would not be possible to do that,” noted Coady. Coal use has also begun to fall in China for the first time this century.

On renewable energy, Coady said: “If we get the pricing of fossil fuels right, the argument for subsidies for renewable energy will disappear. Renewable energy would all of a sudden become a much more attractive option.”

Shelagh Whitley, a subsidies expert at the Overseas Development Institute, said: “The IMF report is yet another reminder that governments around the world are propping up a century-old energy model. Compounding the issue, our research shows that many of the energy subsidies highlighted by the IMF go toward finding new reserves of oil, gas and coal, which we know must be left in the ground if we are to avoid catastrophic, irreversible climate change.”

Developing the international cooperation needed to tackle climate change has proved challenging but a key message from the IMF’s work, according to Gaspar, is that each nation will directly benefit from tackling its own fossil fuel subsidies. “The icing on the cake is that the benefits from subsidy reform – for example, from reduced pollution – would overwhelmingly accrue to local populations,” he said.

“By acting local, and in their own best interest, [nations] can contribute significantly to the solution of a global challenge,” said Gaspar. “The path forward is clear: act local, solve global.”


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[Hamloc]

Sorry Chuck2 not in the mood for cut and paste. Just give me the highlights. I do see Obama's name mentioned US oil production doubled under his watch, a true environmementalist!

[chuckChuck]

Oneoff and Hamloc are definitely biased towards fossil fuels and are incapable of admitting that fossil energy is indeed subsidized in numerous ways. They are well prepared to ignore any of the direct subsidies and indirect costs and sure to criticize every cent that goes to to renewables except bio-fuel in which they have an interest.

They wage an Agriville campaign to discredit any move towards renewable energy and have decided they can predict the future and any effort to replace fossil energy is fruitless.

Meanwhile world wide adoption of renewable energy continues.

Wait for it, next post, Oneoff or Hamloc will criticize the IMF.

[chuckChuck]

Hamloc read what you want or ignore but some issues need to be explained in more than 3 sentences!

[Hamloc]

First off Chuck2 can you show me where my math is incorrect? I would say the number of posts I have put on Agriville argueing the lack of affordability of solar energy with today's technology are no greater than yours argueing the opposite. The auditor general of Ontario Bonnie Lysyk would agree with my opinion of the cost of solar power. Chuck2 you also ignore the number of new coal plants being constructed around the world and refuse to acknowledge this fact. Am I a supporter of fossil fuels? Absolutely. With the technology that exists today I could not farm as many acres as I do or as profitably as I do without them. Could you eliminate all fossil fuel use tomorrow and still farm? As for your assertion I have a closed mind how many solar companies have you talked to about pricing a system? I got a couple of e-mails today from one company, talked to skyfire energy and I am still waiting for pricing from another. Instead of reading fantasy articles written by the great unwashed left I am trying to find out the real numbers and how they apply in my area. Enjoy the rest of this fricking cold and gloomy day! End of rant.