Costsof renewable power link may not work

[Hamloc]

Tweety, talked to Skyfire energy yesterday. 10000 watt system grid tie roof mount 26000 dollars installed. In my case due to my yard layout I require a ground mount, 32000 installed. Now they are quoting an in city installation my would cost slightly more due to travel costs as I am 190 km from Edmonton. Now I just signed a 5 year contract at 6.79 cents a kwh. A 10000 watt system should average 1200 kwh per month in my area or 14400 per year. 14400 x 6.79 cents is 977.76 dollars. 32000/977.79 = 32.72 years. Now this is without financing costs or allowing for the increasing cost of electricity over time, I am willing to bet the two will cancel each other out. In Saskatchewan same system, 14400 x 11.2 cent per kwh = 1612.8. 32000/1612.8 = 19.84 years.

Tweety why do I hate Solar power? Actually I don't, I hate the load of bullshit I am being sold by politicians on how this is our climatic salvation. They increase my taxes, shut down a dependable affordable source of power in this cold climate then they can't do fricking math. So actually I don't hate solar power I hate the NDP and Justin Trudeau. By the way is my math wrong?

[tweety]

Not at all wrong. Does your power bill include transmission? If a guy could get off the grid completely, then what is the payback time?

Does it include power put back on the grid?

As an aside, do you actually use 1.2 mwh per month?

[burnt]

.....
Tweety why do I hate Solar power? Actually I don't, I hate the load of bullshit I am being sold by politicians on how this is our climatic salvation. They increase my taxes, shut down a dependable affordable source of power in this cold climate then they can't do fricking math. So actually I don't hate solar power I hate the NDP and Justin Trudeau. By the way is my math wrong?

Bingo.

And these greedy b***tards that install these "commercial" systems because they can make a chunk of money on the subsidized program that is funded with our tax dollars, but wouldn't think to trying to generate their own needs because of the unsustainable cost. Yet they don't mind saddling their neighbours and families with the cost.

And don't even try talking about how other energy sources are subsidized because there is absolutely no comparison.

[Hamloc]

Tweety, I have added up my yearly consumption. I consumed 18000 kwh in 2016 at a total cost of 3750 dollars. Of this power was 1440 the rest transmission, distribution and administration. To go off grid I had priced that out before well over 100 grand. Battery storage is still expensive and has to be replaced about every 10 years. Payback period is even longer than grid tie.

[ajl]

I have also been looking at solar power as well recently and agree with Hamloc's math. Without significant subsidies it doesn't work. I also want to get away from more government meddling in the market place.

[tweety]

So what do we do? Wait until fossil fuel becomes very expensive before we do any renewable?

I agree 100%, the math doesn't look so good at today's price of oil especially. Its just too cheap.

Trudeau was supposed to pull all the subsidies away from fossil, hasn't happened.

[oneoff]

Just for the twesties and chocks....

You're sure you know the right thing to do....BUT YOU CAN"T BRING YOURSELF TO DO IT ON YOUR OWN DIME BECAUSE YOU"RE TOO DAMN CHEAP.

If only someone else could be forced to pay for making it cheaper or preferably "free" for your personal use.

What a dilema. And of course how can society ever provide your entitlements to every other customer. That would involve your paying your fair share. Or some of additional public debt that no one (especially those responsible) would ever feel any responsibility for creating

Getting off the grid is so not workable. You'll tie yourself down worse than a dairy or trying to burn coal when you have more than enough to switch around priorities But it might be a good learning lesson and bring some common sense into your lives.


And trying to generate significant solar during the months of December and January is a lot like being able to see to down to the 20 foot dugout ice level when you know there are 200 head of cows and the dugout never was 22 feet deep.


Do you really need to experience what is going to happen through first hand knowledge?

[tweety]

So what do we do in the mean time? Nothing till fossils get scarce and then start building renewable energy sources?

Topic of does it cost more is beat to death. It does.

How about transferring that 34 billion in oil subsidies to become renewable energy subsidies. Does that work for you?

How about putting all the carbon tax into renewable energy. Does that work for you? Or would you rather see it go to Shell and husky? Cuz it aint going away.

[oneoff]

So what do we do in the mean time? Nothing till fossils get scarce and then start building renewable energy sources?

Topic of does it cost more is beat to death. It does.

How about transferring that 34 billion in oil subsidies to become renewable energy subsidies. Does that work for you?

How about putting all the carbon tax into renewable energy. Does that work for you? Or would you rather see it go to Shell and husky? Cuz it aint going away.

If it costs more ...you''ll still be amongst the last to use it. If it has major flaws then all the subsidies still won't provide an alternative. If it makes sense economically it will succeed on its own (in a global market). Now if we make ourselves deliberately uncompetitive and have next to nothing to show for the effort; then thats insanity.

This is the way it works. Recognize the current situation (both its strengths and weaknesses aka. as Present situation) If there are compelling reasons and its necessary to decommission; retrofit or embark on new paths..then realistically examine the alternatives (not based on expectations of perfection) and call it a potential Design project (Plan A). Attempt to account for all known worst case scenarios. If; say; Plan A calls for producing 50% of generating capacity in 20 years; then be damn sure it can be ramped up; scaled and works dependably before committing and investing more than research type efforts...and before altering Present situation significantly.

Still maintain a Plan B in wings for the unforseen setbacks and emergencies and especially before going to point of no return for Present situation

Your assumption that "34 billion" would cure all present deficiencies and problems is just where faulty logic begins. We'd still need our "Present situation" in order to even be able to function with a dependable system which we rightfully expect and depend upon for real life situations.

[tweety]

Never said it would cure anything, just said i'd rather see it go there.

Good enough, do nothing, oil execs need the money.

[Hamloc]

Tweety, you mention 2 things consistently, the finiteness of oil and excessive profits of oil companies.

Both federal and provincial governments want to shutter coal, no effect on oil consumption. Secondly over twice as much C02 emissions come from on road transportation as power generation. As well far more people drive on the roads than work at a coal fired electrical plant so the political fall out is much less. As for oil company profits, in Alberta coal plants are being replaced with natural gas, who sells natural gas? Oil companies. What are solar panels made from? More oil than coal. I would say present policies are hurting our future energy supplies rather than helping them. Just my contrary view!!!Also how many people heat their homes with coal? With natural gas? Which is more widely used? Which do we need to conserve?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

[QUOTE=

Do any Agriville members power their homes year round by solar or wind? Would be interested to hear about farms doing this in a cold climate.

[/QUOTE]

I have a close neighbor and part time farmer entirely off the grid. Solar, wind turbine, wood boiler for heat and hot water, batteries and a back up gasoline generator an propane tank,wood fired tank heaters for stock tanks. All this was done to save the cost of 1/2 mile of powerline. It works, the cost is multiples of what the powerline would have cost. The wind turbine is useless, since it shuts down above a certain wind speed. Someone has to stay home everyday to babysit. They are satisfied with the end result, and will stick with it, but admit it was not cost effective.

A lot of other people out here in the wild west who wanted to go off the grid for various reasons, but eventually and after pouring a lot of money down a black hole gave up.

So it is possible.