Western Seperation not run by dummies

[Daylate]

I'd say a form of seperation or a move to more independence is not impossible. Left leaning had the world convinced Trump would not be president. The silent majority here could be ready for this move.

[ajl]

Western Separation is imperative. Look at your kids and tell them that one day they get to pay off Ontario's debt. The day is coming that Ontario goes broke and will be going cap in hand to Ottawa. That is the end day of Canuckistan. Western Canada's debt level is still manageable assuming Notely leaves soon. There is hope mayor spendsharia gets shown the door in Calgary and that means that there are still enough voters here to sober up and make wise choices.

[ajl]

Problem is it would be run by dummies - for dummies because separation and fragmentation of first world countries in this day and age is just dumb. Same story in Scotland. "In unity is strength" - better stay together and work to make it better every time.

Major difference: Scotland is like Quebec, Alberta and SK like Catalonia. Scotland needs the support of the UK as they are not capable of managing their own affairs. Their green energy program comes to mind here. There is no regard, nor will there ever be in Central canuckistan for the west, until the day when transfer payment arrive no longer. They will wonder what just hit them.

[grassfarmer]

... Scotland needs the support of the UK as they are not capable of managing their own affairs. Their green energy program comes to mind here....

Oh really? I wonder what in your vast knowledge of Scotland led you to came up with these statements?
Scotland managed just fine to run their own affairs for 800 years before the Act of Union.
Their green energy program seems to have been rather successful too - having already had days where renewables produced more than 100% of their electrical requirements. They are on a path to meet half of their heat, transport and electrical demand with renewables by 2030.

[farming101]

Oh really? I wonder what in your vast knowledge of Scotland led you to came up with these statements?

Improper tense.

[burnt]

Oh really? I wonder what in your vast knowledge of Scotland led you to came up with these statements?
Scotland managed just fine to run their own affairs for 800 years before the Act of Union.
Their green energy program seems to have been rather successful too - having already had days where renewables produced more than 100% of their electrical requirements. They are on a path to meet half of their heat, transport and electrical demand with renewables by 2030.

grassant, I'm greatly surprised that you failed to make mention of one crucial factor - at what cost?

Here, let me help you out:

[URL="https://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2014/apr/08/scotland-scottish-green-energy-taxes"]https://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2014/apr/08/scotland-scottish-green-energy-taxes[/URL]

[Hamloc]

grassant, I'm greatly surprised that you failed to make mention of one crucial factor - at what cost?

Here, let me help you out:

[URL="https://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2014/apr/08/scotland-scottish-green-energy-taxes"]https://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2014/apr/08/scotland-scottish-green-energy-taxes[/URL]

Thanks for the link Burnt. It certainly confirms what I have always believed about the great green energy myth. Our governments in Canada including Trudeau and Notley apparently can't do math and fail to realize once they kill the fossil fuel industry revenues will have to come from somewhere, where will that be? I will tell you it will be you and me. Green energy will lead to higher energy costs and much higher personal taxes it is inevitable.

[burnt]

Thanks for the link Burnt. It certainly confirms what I have always believed about the great green energy myth. Our governments in Canada including Trudeau and Notley apparently can't do math and fail to realize once they kill the fossil fuel industry revenues will have to come from somewhere, where will that be? I will tell you it will be you and me. Green energy will lead to higher energy costs and much higher personal taxes it is inevitable.

Higher taxes to fund faulty Liberal ideology - ya think maybe?

You don't suppose that this realization might be a big part of the sock puppet's and Morneau's move to start confiscating private wealth through their highly unpopular revised tax schemes?

And guess what - once they have rammed this measure through with their majority gov't , there will be more to follow.

It is called cultural Marxism, in contrast to the revolutionary Marxism that Stalin imposed on the USSR.

You will recall that the sock puppet expressed admiration for the Chinese dictatorship because it was easier to take sweeping action, rather than having to deal with a messy democratic process.

Well, he wasn't joking.

[furrowtickler]

Not sure if we need to separate, just cut off the transfer funds . Quebec will cry like a spoiled brat. I am sure there would be some negotiation pretty quick on a lot of issues.
If we do nothing , this Liberal government is going to continue to clean everyone's cupboard bare and Quebec is going to continue laughing at western Canada

[Guest]

The biggest flaw with equalization is that if you collect ,say 3-5 years in a row it gets reduced and the more you collect , the less you get , same as crop ins. This would be an incentive to get off their ass and do something for themselves . And what kind of idiot could agree that leaving their hydro sales out is fair???
Every province can have hard luck and collect for a while , but only one can collect every year since inception

[Oliver88]

Major difference: Scotland is like Quebec, Alberta and SK like Catalonia. Scotland needs the support of the UK as they are not capable of managing their own affairs. Their green energy program comes to mind here. There is no regard, nor will there ever be in Central canuckistan for the west, until the day when transfer payment arrive no longer. They will wonder what just hit them.

Good points.

Scotland had a referendum a few years back to decide on leaving Britain but they decided their big brother England wasn't so bad when they factored in finances and voted to STAY.

Just like Quebec with their two referendums.

[chuckChuck]

I agree Sask we pay for all those things but they are a choice. If you are in hard times you don't drink smoke or drive around to get by. But if you get sick and are in hard times in the USA you die. Plain and simple.
Are there problems with our health care absolutely. But sill a better option for those less fortunate. If you have the money go to the US for treatment likely is better if you have the money.

Question for you and chuck and
Forage. Tell us your spin on how equalization is calculated? I want to know once and for all. I m like most people when I hear the billions going to
Quebec I m so pissed but how is that formula determined I want to know are our local provinces being stupid in letting that income go?
And then there is the second question should there be equalization at all? We ve used it here when grain and oil were both down.

Equalization is just one federal program. Health transfers to provinces are another. There is some information on the web if you do a search that shows the payments and how the system works. You have to look at all federal transfers to get a clearer picture. The primary thing to know is that equalization is a federal program paid out of general revenues collected by the federal government. Same as health transfers. There are no direct transfers of payments from one province to another. Alberta pays more federal taxes per capita because there are more federal taxes collected in Alberta because incomes are higher. But Ontario is a much larger payer of federal taxes overall than Alberta because the economy and population of Ontario is much larger.

"The equalization program was established by the federal government in 1957 and then enshrined in the Canadian Constitution in 1982. The program itself was, and is meant as, recognition that Canada is one country. As such, all Canadians should have access to comparable levels of services and infrastructure—regardless of whether they happen to live in a rich province or a poor one.

The federal government does this by calculating the average revenue-generating capacity among the 10 Canadian provinces, and then giving the provinces that fall shy of the line enough money to bring them up to the average. The calculation is based on the revenues you would receive if you charged the average tax rate of all the provinces combined—so a particular province’s actual tax rate doesn’t really impact how much that province receives. It also doesn’t matter how cheap child care or tuition is in your province, or how much your province spends on health care. The only thing that matters is what capacity your province has for generating revenue. Because it’s based on revenue rather than expenditures, the federal government puts no strings on what the provinces receiving equalization can or can’t do with the money they receive.

The most important thing to remember in all of this is that the federal government pays for equalization, and it does it out of the same general revenue pool used to fund all of its programs and services. In other words, every Canadian that pays federal taxes contributes to equalization payments on the exact same basis. A rich person in Quebec or New Brunswick will contribute more to equalization than a less wealthy person in Alberta or Saskatchewan. And because there are more Ontarians paying federal taxes than Albertans, more dollars for equalization actually come from Ontario than Alberta." http://www.vueweekly.com/alberta-doesnt-send-oil-money-to-have-nots-and-ontario-contributes-more-than-alberta/

Saskatchewan has received more equalization payments as it was untill recent years a have not province compared to Ontario or Alberta.

Without oil and gas Alberta would also be a have not province and would receive equalization. Alberta by luck, not good management just happens to be sitting on lots of oil and gas. This has allowed Albertans higher incomes and more business activity. They don't have higher incomes because they are smarter or work harder! There just lucky.

Its the same in the farming community. There are farms and families with lots of oil revenue who won the geology and mineral titles lottery and the majority who don't have any. Of course those with lots of oil revenue pay more taxes than they receive in government services. But you don't hear them complaining to their poorer neighbors in the coffee shop about paying too many taxes because they have too much oil revenue!

Other countries have equalization programs. Because regional disparity and economic conditions vary a lot within countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments will provide a brief description.

Alberta is the only province that has not benefited from Federal equalization payments. And the only reason this is the case is because of oil and gas nothing else. But the reason they have not received equalization is because they have had very large benefits from sitting on all the oil and gas.

Even with paying more federal taxes because of higher incomes they are still way better off than most of the rest of the country. They have a deficit because they don't have a pst and they collect less provincial income tax. And they don't collect enough royalties in the good times to save for the low price periods. No savings like Norway. Years of poor decisions from previous governments. It is a boom and bust economy. Always has been since oil was discovered. Having too much money sometimes is sometimes a curse if you don't plan for when times are tough. Most farmers know not to plan on high prices for long periods of time.