Fossil fuels subsidised by $10m a minute, says IMF

[chuckChuck]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/18/fossil-fuel-companies-getting-10m-a-minute-in-subsidies-says-imf

Fossil fuels subsidised by $10m a minute, says IMF

‘Shocking’ revelation finds $5.3tn subsidy estimate for 2015 is greater than the total health spending of all the world’s governments

[Klause]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/18/fossil-fuel-companies-getting-10m-a-minute-in-subsidies-says-imf

Fossil fuels subsidised by $10m a minute, says IMF

‘Shocking’ revelation finds $5.3tn subsidy estimate for 2015 is greater than the total health spending of all the world’s governments

I keep saying libertarian government is the way to go but people like you keep screaming at the top of your lungs we need big government.


This is the result.

And no this isn't a liberal or NDP or conservation issue. This is an issue worldwide with all governments because they have gotten themselves far to involved in business and personal dealings. They distort trade they distort financial markets and they distort personal aspirations.


All big government must fall. And it will one way or another.

[checking]

cc.

Get use to paying for the increasing monthly basic part of the utilities you need for the base load back up required during the down time of unreliable days of wind and solar. It won't matter that you have those renewable energy systems installed if your idea was cost savings. You will just be paying much more than most of us having to have a redundant non environmental system for necessary backup on down days. Some of those down days will be critical for your family, and for your infrastructure's well being.

Pay, pay, pay. Utility system companies don't care that you use their heat, or power. They have got you by upping their "stand by charges" that you can't afford to disconnect.

[chuckChuck]

I keep saying libertarian government is the way to go but people like you keep screaming at the top of your lungs we need big government.


This is the result.

And no this isn't a liberal or NDP or conservation issue. This is an issue worldwide with all governments because they have gotten themselves far to involved in business and personal dealings. They distort trade they distort financial markets and they distort personal aspirations.


All big government must fall. And it will one way or another.

A large part of the subsidies calculated are hidden like health and environmental costs. A smaller portion is tax and royalty incentives and direct subsidies.

It seems like in Canada the bigger problem is low royalties. Some of that may be justified because of high production costs but oil companies drove up costs in the boom on their own with out of control development and growth. There is an argument that low royalty rates encouraged companies to grow but not be efficient and cost effective.

How we as owners have some of the lowest royalty rates in the world is the biggest question? It seems like governments have acted in the interests of oil companies and not the citizens. Notley and the NDP seem to be no different on royalties. Stelmach was turned back on this issue. Are we electing corrupt gutless governments?

[Klause]

A large part of the subsidies calculated are hidden like health and environmental costs. A smaller portion is tax and royalty incentives and direct subsidies.

It seems like in Canada the bigger problem is low royalties. Some of that may be justified because of high production costs but oil companies drove up costs in the boom on their own with out of control development and growth. There is an argument that low royalty rates encouraged companies to grow but not be efficient and cost effective.

How we as owners have some of the lowest royalty rates in the world is the biggest question? It seems like governments have acted in the interests of oil companies and not the citizens. Notley and the NDP seem to be no different on royalties. Stelmach was turned back on this issue. Are we electing corrupt gutless governments?

I was wondering when you were going to regurgitate that.


We have the cheapest oil on the planet and no infrastructure to move it. You know... Like our ag industry. Made in Canada problem.


It's not production costs... It's the cost of getting it to a marketable position. It's the cost of all the new worthless environmental bullshit.

And watch what I'm saying... We need to protect the environment but a bunch of reports and paperwork and cyclical meetings do not do that. Having to catch slough water from washing a drilling rig in winter is stupid. Just as bad as allowing excessive hogh steam pressures and cheap cement at CNRLs site that blew out hoe many thousands of bbl of crude.


And blamon production costs going up on development is the same as blaming farmers for the urea run up to $1000 a few t
Years ago

[chuckChuck]

I was wondering when you were going to regurgitate that.


We have the cheapest oil on the planet and no infrastructure to move it. You know... Like our ag industry. Made in Canada problem.


It's not production costs... It's the cost of getting it to a marketable position. It's the cost of all the new worthless environmental bullshit.

And watch what I'm saying... We need to protect the environment but a bunch of reports and paperwork and cyclical meetings do not do that. Having to catch slough water from washing a drilling rig in winter is stupid. Just as bad as allowing excessive hogh steam pressures and cheap cement at CNRLs site that blew out hoe many thousands of bbl of crude.


And blamon production costs going up on development is the same as blaming farmers for the urea run up to $1000 a few t
Years ago

The cheapest oil in the planet to produce is in the middle east not Canada! Where did you get that idea that Canada has the cheapest oil to produce?

Transportation to market is a cost that every product must bear. Our costs may be higher but that is because of location and distance to markets. How much is this cost relative to all the other costs? Still doesn't negate the fact that Canada has very low royalty rates.

Some types of Canadian oil is discounted but not all. There is significant light oil in Saskatchewan and Alberta which is well hooked into pipelines. Oil is still moving to market and oil companies are still making money. So I think you are out to lunch in suggesting this is the basis of the problem.

Some environmental regs are overkill but there is a long legacy of abandoned equipment, roads, and spills that the oil companies will never pay to clean up. Taxpayers will subsidize them yet again. Not to mention the 3 billion in direct subsidies.

[Klause]

The cheapest oil in the planet to produce is in the middle east not Canada! Where did you get that idea that Canada has the cheapest oil to produce?

Transportation to market is a cost that every product must bear. Our costs may be higher but that is because of location and distance to markets. How much is this cost relative to all the other costs? Still doesn't negate the fact that Canada has very low royalty rates.

Some types of Canadian oil is discounted but not all. There is significant light oil in Saskatchewan and Alberta which is well hooked into pipelines. Oil is still moving to market and oil companies are still making money. So I think you are out to lunch in suggesting this is the basis of the problem.

Some environmental regs are overkill but there is a long legacy of abandoned equipment, roads, and spills that the oil companies will never pay to clean up. Taxpayers will subsidize them yet again. Not to mention the 3 billion in direct subsidies.

My phone changed cheapest to cheapest.



Light oik in sask trades at a discount to WTI. Unlike Saudi oil that trades at Brent

What's the spread between Brent and wti? Go look it up


At least there's a semblance of cleanup here... Have you seen what a drilling or production site looks like in the Arab or african countries? You need to go check that out.


And actually it's basic economics... If every cost here is higher you need to lower royalties to make things even.


Even your beloved NDP said the rates were fair keep arguing all you want but your argument doesn't have a toe to stand on.

[chuckChuck]

What are the numbers then?

The only way we will get to the bottom of this is to see what the numbers are and decide if we as owners are getting a fair share?

In one of the articles I have referenced, one said that in the 1970s Canadian governments including Alberta took up to 40% of oil revenue in taxes and royalties and now we are down to 5%. What happened?

Are horizontal wells given a royalty holiday for 3 years when most of the production happens in the first year?

What about the costs in the oil sands versus conventional oil. They are not the same. What is the royalty structure for each?

I will post an article from a former oil industry executive for Shell who argued for more transparency project by project on what industry pays in taxes and royalties. The oil idustry fought hard against this transparency. The mining industry went along. Why? I think it is obvious why.

More to come on this subject later.....

[burnt]

Well howbow dah - the IMF seems to have overlooked the horrendous rate of subsidies paid out to Ontario's wind sector!

In one given month this summer (August, I think it was), almost 80% of the energy from wind turbines was exported to the US at a price of about 1/10 of the cost of production. How many dollars per second does that come to chucky, wanna take a GUESS?

And in the peak usage time during the month of September, wind energy produced a total of .3% of the needed electricity while the rest of the shortfall (that exceeded the capacity of hydro and nuke) had to be imported from Quebec and Manitoba at------a premium.

And they call that sustainable, LOLLLZ!

BTW, chucky, you would be correct if you guessed that green energy costs do NOT include the costs of environmental and health hazards borne by the countries that actually produce the majority of "GREEN" energy components. Nor do they include the future cost of dismantling and disposing of the waste left after the turbines and solar panels are scrap.

Of course, that would demand honesty from the green movement, a characteristic which appears to be in short supply with them.

[chuckChuck]

So now that we know that both fossil energy and renewables both receive subsidies, lets see which one is the best investment. Keeping in mind that some of the early subsidies to wind and solar in Ontario were excessive.

Wind and solar are now cost competitive or cheaper in many jurisdictions without subsidies than fossil energy. And we know we still need base load for intermittent renewables so lets not rehash that debate again. So hydro, gas, nuclear can and will provide base load for the near future.

[burnt]

So now that we know that both fossil energy and renewables both receive subsidies, lets see which one is the best investment. Keeping in mind that some of the early subsidies to wind and solar in Ontario were excessive.

Wind and solar are now cost competitive or cheaper in many jurisdictions without subsidies than fossil energy. And we know we still need base load for intermittent renewables so lets not rehash that debate again. So hydro, gas, nuclear can and will provide base load for the near future.

And with zer own words, chucky just showed us that because of its unreliability, "green" energy is unsustainable.

And since it cannot stand without conventional supply, it is completely subsidized by the system that chucky wants to portray as bad.

What a remarkable admission, chucky my friend!

[chuckChuck]

And with zer own words, chucky just showed us that because of its unreliability, "green" energy is unsustainable.

And since it cannot stand without conventional supply, it is completely subsidized by the system that chucky wants to portray as bad.

What a remarkable admission, chucky my friend!

Intermittent is not the same as unreliable. If solar or wind is producing watts then less coal, gas or hydro is being used. Try to spin it however you want. Here is some proof that renewables are not unreliable:

Germany has been getting up to 85 percent of its electricity from renewable sources on certain sunny, windy days this year. The BEE reported on Sunday the overall share of wind, hydro and solar power in the country's electricity mix climbed to a record 35 percent in the first half.Jul 3, 2017

"The share of renewable electricity use is high in Sweden; hydro, wind, and solar power together accounted for 49.8% of the electricity produced in the country in 2014 (when measured against national electricity consumption, however, this amount rises to 55.5%).

Unreliable?? LOL

This thread is about subsidies to fossil fuel. Are you in favour of subsidizing fossil fuels?

[Horse]

Burnt can you do all your field work on 1 tank of fuel.no ??I guess that would mean fossil fuel in unstanable
The gov is very wasteful with our taxes whereas the oil co are very efficient at hiding there money so no one knows how much they are getting, and with people like burnt, klause sing their praises they just go merrily along living the dream.

[Klause]

Burnt can you do all your field work on 1 tank of fuel.no ??I guess that would mean fossil fuel in unstanable
The gov is very wasteful with our taxes whereas the oil co are very efficient at hiding there money so no one knows how much they are getting, and with people like burnt, klause sing their praises they just go merrily along living the dream.

And people like you and Chuck Live in a fantasy world with no idea how economies energy systems factories or business works - and unwilling to learn.

Horse you hate the energy industry and oil workers so much.... I hope you heat your house with wood, use no plastics and farm with horses. Because unless your doing that you are relying on those evil oil field workers and oil companies.


A Saskpower linesman. a GMC auto plant worker. A nurse. A potash mine worker. A plumber. A carpenter. An electrician. A mechanic. They all make the same hourly wage as somebody who works in the patch so give it an effing rest. I'd you can't compete with go-getters that's your problem not theirs.

[checking]

Actually cc., intermittent is not the same as reliable. So yes, for reliability purposes and security, I am prepared to subsidize fossil fuels over subsidizing intermittent systems, and subsidizing fossil fuel systems concurrently.
Two bills and one pocket leads to "can society afford it".