Green energy is dumb

[oneoff]

Grassy...I'll save the word "dotard" for later; but for now an open plastic trough and your solar bilge pump (in the dead of any prairie winter) would have been cursed and problematic in the very near future.

[Guest]

From your conference board of canada link
"Putting renewable and nuclear energy in context

Sources of energy that produce low amounts of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions include wind, tidal, solar, biomass, nuclear, hydroelectric, and geothermal.

Increasing renewable energy’s share of total energy consumption should be a policy goal to mitigate climate change in Canada and its peer countries. Nuclear electricity generation may also have a role to play in reducing Canada’s carbon output".

My thoughts:
Hydro is a good option. Canada has a lot of hydro capacity already. Every new hydro project should be evaluated on its' own merits. We should be looking at all options based on economics and environmental risks and benefits. That's why wind and solar are on the table where it makes sense.
that's something I don't understand ; why haven't a lot of coals plants been converted to. natural gas. ?
Many people think it is a black and white decision. Either you are in favor of renewables and opposed to fossil sources or opposed to renewables and in favor of fossil energy.

For the time being we are all dependent on both if you consider that Canada is a major hydro producer and using a lot of coal in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia.

We shouldn't be retrofitting or building any new coal electrical generation in Saskatchewan or Alberta. Gas is abundant and being wasted in the oil industry with a large number of flares. Convert the coal plants to gas as an interim measure to reduce carbon emissions by 1/2. Its much cheaper than carbon capture and storage so says Sask Power.

why aren't we generating more power with natural gas ??

[bucket]

Grass....

My 2 cents....if you make the water come in on the side and make the water spin....with an overflow back to the slough it shouldn't freeze....may need a cover with a couple holes but moving water rarely freezes....

Our trough an old steel wheel and is fed at the bottom at the outside diameter which creates the spin .....the overflow is in the middle with a pale over the top so shit like grass or leaves doesn't plug it up....very rare it has ice. ..feed with a quarter inch hole in a valve from an artesian well....

[grassfarmer]

Thanks bucket but it works just fine as is - I never claimed it was our winter water solution but it's quite workable down to -20C. With that pump the water is moving way too fast to keep it running and overflowing - would take way too much battery to run.
My point in posting this was to prove that solar is a viable solution to the naysayers who claim their solar patio lights don't work on an overcast day. My point stands - solar has considerable potential.

[oneoff]

Thanks bucket but it works just fine as is - I never claimed it was our winter water solution but it's quite workable down to -20C. With that pump the water is moving way too fast to keep it running and overflowing - would take way too much battery to run.
My point in posting this was to prove that solar is a viable solution to the naysayers who claim their solar patio lights don't work on an overcast day. My point stands - solar has considerable potential.

I was going to let this go...but then grassy had to sayMy point in posting this was to prove that solar is a viable solution to the naysayers who claim their solar patio lights don't work on an overcast day. My point stands - solar has considerable potential.

My point is that solar patio lights and electric fencers may be near ideal uses for solar panels. For "mission critical" applications like a small recreational rural airport runway; even they installed cable between lights and connected to the grid. Everyrthing should have admitted limits and "considerable potential" still means limits that are best wisely respected. An adequate dependable winter watering system is important to an intensive livestock operation...and any livestock operation too.
But those who choose to publish their bright ideas as examples of how intensive livestock operations can water 350 head of cattle need to initially point out potential shortcomings upfront. One of the common characteristics of such promoters is to leave out key information; and seem to end up with a summary like[This was to prove that solar is a viable solution to the naysayers who claim their solar patio lights don't work on an overcast day. My point stands - solar has considerable potential


Well the picture and example given by grassy uses a solar powered watering system that "works just fine" to attempt to show that solar can easily replace almost everything else. The details that have to be pryed out are that the writer only reluctantly admits (or won't even contemplate) that
eg, -20C is not the coldest weather in the prairies. In fact its only a little below -2 degrees F.

Secondly solar panels aren't capable of production but maybe 15% of time under ideal sunlight and panel operation conditions. In winter at these latitudes that output is diminshed to the point that December and January electrical production is typically DISMAL.

Third water pumping is apparently "open discharge" in this simple setup...meaning somebody has to babysit the watering of those trained animals who parade in to water without ever an overcrowding incident. Not convinced this works 100% of the time in the real world. Remember there is no water level control on that trough and there had better be somebody looking at more than skimming a little ice off an open trough with real winter conditions complete with brutal wind chills. And remember tha pump can't run continually; and if it did overflow the tank then a whole set of other problems will surface. Also it going to grow old watching cows drink water all day.

And finally making cows eat snow isn't an ideal method of providing water required for animals. As an animal I suggest that grassy report back as to how he likes a diet including only snowballs for moisture to keep body functions going. The comment as to how ruminants have excess heat production from rumen activity that can melt all the snow they need in place of water......only can be pushed to a certain temperature, stress and heat loss limit.. I doubt grassy should want to test that exact point with his 350 head of domesticated animals that are under his care and are his responsibility. Further he probably has no idea even when those limit may be close to being reached.

[grassfarmer]

Yeah dumbass, I've forgotten more about cows and their management than you'll ever know. Took you 2 days to read up on how electric fences work before you realized the stupidity of your earlier claims that it couldn't possibly work. Maybe reflect a bit longer and you'd realize that my water system has a float switch on it how the hell do you think it would work otherwise? Keep on guessing about things you know nothing about though - makes good entertainment for the rest of us!

[oneoff]

Welcome to Canada. I guess. Always good to burn bridges eh!!

Fortunately most Canadian cattlemen do have some sympathy for domesticated cattle effectively forced to survive on -20F to -40F snow for their required "water intake".

[grassfarmer]

Here is some of the Canadian research backing this widely used practice:

[URL="http://www1.foragebeef.ca/$foragebeef/frgebeef.nsf/all/ccf1020"]http://http://www1.foragebeef.ca/$foragebeef/frgebeef.nsf/all/ccf1020[/URL]


Take away abstract for the skimmers "Through extensive testing in the early 1980's, the University of Alberta found insignificant differences in cow performance or body stress levels when asked to eat snow as their sole water source."

[Les Magura]

Would love to help but there is a saying that goes "you can't fix stupid" and given your original posting and some of replies denying climate change and green energy projects as well as the carbon tax all of which make a whole lot of sense, don't know if I can help or not.

[burnt]

Would love to help but there is a saying that goes "you can't fix stupid" and given your original posting and some of replies denying climate change and green energy projects as well as the carbon tax all of which make a whole lot of sense, don't know if I can help or not.

Nice of you to offer, but it's never worked out well when stupid tries to fix "stupid". Les,have you stopped using carbon-based fuels or are you just another Liberal hypocrite?

Just asking for someone...

[RWT101]

Some people may be interested in these.



And this one.




Canada is north of 40N.

This is physical reality which can never be changed by anybody.

And it means that BIG batteries are the key to any serious solar power in the land with 8 months of winter and 4 months of summer.

Private investment, GO FOR IT.

Gubmint tax dollars, FORGET IT.

[shtferbrains]

There you have it RWT101.

Solar is far beyond new technology. It is commercial mainstream with many for profitable plants supplying reliable power in locations where it makes sense.

As Grassfarmer points out, here it is seasonal at best.

We are well blessed with excess natural sources of energy, many of them under developed, but no commercial developer has stepped up to the plate anywhere near here without some sweetheart govmt subsidy.

I believe Canada's largest solar boondoggle is near Sarnia, about the same latitude as Southern California.

Edit: I forgot to proof read, please check it for me too Grassy?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Here is some of the Canadian research backing this widely used practice:

[URL="http://www1.foragebeef.ca/$foragebeef/frgebeef.nsf/all/ccf1020"]http://http://www1.foragebeef.ca/$foragebeef/frgebeef.nsf/all/ccf1020[/URL]


Take away abstract for the skimmers "Through extensive testing in the early 1980's, the University of Alberta found insignificant differences in cow performance or body stress levels when asked to eat snow as their sole water source."

In my grandpas times, they didn't pump water and stoke the tank heater all winter, they used snow. I typically feed cows half a mile from the nearest waterer. Some cows go and drink daily, some never come up for water( learn this when trying to catch certain cows when they happen to come to corral for water), some go all that way and still eat snow. Some years I have them in areas with no water, some cows protest for a few days, then they figure it out. When swath grazing in snow they won't drink any water.

Normally I'd agree with Oneoff, but on this topic and the solar fencers/waterers, Grassfarmer is 100% correct.

Geothermal is amazing too. When everyone had well pits, they are constant warm temperature, never freezes. No insulation, no other heat source, and the top of the pressure tank in ours was only 3 feet below grade at most. I used one stock waterer all last winter with no heating element. It had a very slight leak and overflowed eventually, only about 4 cattle using it. I only had to break the ice a half dozen times all winter. Heat was coming from the trickling water and the riser pipe.

[oneoff]

OK I'm not too small to admit when my argument is all but lost.

My defence is that I initially didn't pay much attention befo e the concluding statement of 2" x 3" and 9000 volts so I jumped all over grassy and his operational solutions that "work just fine for him"

My apologies to solar panels married to ideal applications such as electric fencers; geothermal applications as well; I'm all for them; especially when they provide solutions that are otherwise even more difficult to solve.

I do challenge grassy et al to come up with solutions for their farting animals; and for their beef customers who have the "Earth Ranger" attitudes that their children most certainly will entertain for the rest of their lives
l
AND THE BIG BIG PROBLEM OF A WORLD POPULATION GROWING TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL (on a world wide basis) is something that deniers should have come to terms with in the distant past (and will have to confront). That topic is important or maybe not. And I apologize for that too.