Arable Food for Thought

[farmaholic]

A big part of Western Canada is semi-arid, sometimes just enough moisture to support an annual crop let alone a cover crop that will use limited soil moisture up until the cover crop dies weeks after the annual crop is harvested. But imagine the drying benefits of areas or years when moisture was "surplus". It likely has a lot of merit when and where justified.

I think biological soil amendments will be a big thing in the future.

(Trying to offset the negative waves with positive ones)

[grassfarmer]

Two very good points Farmaholic.

[furrowtickler]

Your right about the soil biological amendments . That and herbicide / disease resistance that is marching across western canada is concerning.

[blackpowder]

Listened to a researcher the other day re biologics etc.
Micro nutrient availability (ph factors, S availability etc) aids or hinders conditions in the microryhzae (dont care how its spelled). Kind of a hand in hand thing.
One instance they were studying bacteria that countered salinity for some plants like wheat or peas.
Remember its a bacteria that grabs or breaks down N and everything else.

Now consider this company having difficulty with regulating.
Europe calls it a fert. We call it a herbicide. Years for any approval. Years behind in research.

Now i know everything needs rain and theres no money in wheat. Just wondering that if someday an eye toward soil capacity in all its functions wouldnt hurt.

[tubs]

Very interesting topic I am also investigating some different option as monoculture as that what Iam doing now. I believe the whole industry is not interested in this concept because they can not make money in that system. The problems I see with polyculture is weed control and timing of harvests. Our system we have now is giving 50 percent of our revenue to multinationals would be way better if can keep some of that. We also have to look at our nutrients in that kernel of grain. What we are doing now is going to hit a brick wall years from now our soils are not working properly now we get wet solutions tracks on tractors our forfathers just had little 2 wheel drive tractors look what the crops were like when the prairies were just broke up. At the same time I do not believe organic is the way to go, probably somewhere in the middle

[Hopalong]

Not saying it won’t happen here but think drawbacks mentioned have to be overcome.

[grassfarmer]

Was at a presentation in Winnipeg a while back by someone who proves that organic can work. Organic farmer consistently producing 20% above local area crop insurance yields with a wheat/pea/alfalfa/livestock rotation. Soil amendments using the Albrecht method - can cost anywhere from $500-800 to get the soil functioning properly - main amendments were wood ash and calcium. Sounds a lot of money but maybe cheap compared to buying more land? Quoted a 55bu wheat crop that sold for $18 picked up/$990 acre! Buyers 1200kms away call him wondering if he has any wheat for them.

[ajl]

Expanding a rotation through trading land with a rancher does have potential, but finding a ranchers that pays is less likely than finding a unicorn. Most ranchers are of the free feed=cow profitability mentality. Organic production consistent over conventional is occasionally possible when all the circumstances alaign but consistently over time does not happen no matter how much we would like to believe it to be true because every crop export so much N, P, K and S and it has to be supplied somehow. There was a case of 130 bu organic oats off a field in the area last year. I believe it was likely close to true but the field was close to the barn of an former dairy farm and was summer fallowed the year before by tillage boosting N mineralization. I doubt this result can ever be repeated. What was the source of N in the organic example cited?

[Sheepwheat]

Interesting topic indeed. Just because most farm like lemmings, following each other, and not trying new things, does not mean doing things different does not work. I talked to a guy this year, who has some land he has not used n fertilizer on for 9 years, yet has produced solid crops annually off this land. Thinking outside the typical box is exhilarating for me, personally. Doing things that ppl say is impossible, drives me. Whether that is farming “strangely”, or farming far less acres than supposedly possible, it is plain fun.

There are so many ways to farm. Most simply do not get that. There are ways to make a living on 20 acres if you want to. One of the things I am looking at, is garlic production. Garlic in rows, cover crops between. Graze the sheep for Weed control. In my honest opinion, one of the things that hold back innovation, is the massive transfer of wealth that has occurred. If you are well set up, there is no to little reason to try new things. Growing soybeans on a few acres is not innovation. Going nine years with no need for nitrogen, is. Generation after generation just stays the course, and makes for boring, corner to corner, grain agriculture. I think that is a shame.

Takes a bit to get a different mindset, but once you do, the whole world changes. Railway backlogs mean nothing, when yOu grow crops that Canada must import, for example. When you make your own nitrogen for nine years, you come to realize you do not need the parasites to survive. Government policy or lack of it, is actually kind of comical when you do not need to rely on it, but learn to rely on yourself!

Of course it can be done. Mixed farming can be done. You just need to know the right ppl. Ppl who encourage, not dissuade you.

[grassfarmer]

What was the source of N in the organic example cited?

Peas, alfalfa and livestock - that's 3 out of the 4 component parts of his rotation.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

There are so many synergies available to adding livestock to a grain operation. A typical grain farm could run a lot of cows for nearly no feed cost. Pasture all the sloughs, potholes, bush and unproductive land. graze stubble, feed straw and off grade grain, hailed out crops, frozen crops etc. And if you feed it the right way and the right place, rebuild worn out soils.

Yes it is a lot of work at all the wrong times, but there are a lot of cowboys and wannabe cowboys with no land of their own, work out a share arrangement whereby they look after the cows, help eachother out during the busy seasons, and they get a generous share of the cattle profit. Which could be virtually pure profit for the grain farmer for very little work of their own. Or maybe provide room and board for his cows in exchange for looking after yours.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Another issue is manure. It is a disposal headache as it costs more in labor and fuel to move it to where it can do good than the nutrients are worth most of the time which is because it is not a great source of N. efficient.

I would have to disagree. Bedding manure hauled from a confined feeding area is a poor source of N . Feeding directly on the land is a great source of N, and requires no additional cost or labor to get it there.

On my heavy clay soils which have had the OM farmed right out of them, manure is worth it's weight in gold. That is the only thing that brings them back to productivity. More so the organic matter content of the manure, than the nutrient content.

On a challenging year like last year when we went from severe drownout to extreme drought in the same year, the difference between land with heavy manure and the same soil without was easily 50 Bu of canola per acre. from 30 to 80+ where the manure started. For >$500 per acre in additional profit per acre for years to come, I can and do spend a lot of time, fuel and money on sourcing and hauling manure.

[WiltonRanch]

Our cows are wintered on the fields where the green feed is made. Used to drop straw and let cows rummage through it while feeding grain as well. If I ever get to it one day I am going to build a box to make little chaff piles. Things like this don’t cost any extra but keep the poop and more importantly the pee out in the fields. There is no doubt rotational grazing, poly crops, cover crops, legumes etc have many benefits. It’s just the extra cost of time, pissing around, or foo foo berry overpriced seed blends versus actual soil health benefits and jingle in your jeans. Each to his or her own but you need to do your own experiments over a number of variable seasons before you can impart your wisdom without pontificating.

[Blaithin]

I enjoy all these replies! Thank you gentlemen I find it very interesting when some of these more alternative methods are talked about, most people seem to know someone who's doing/done something similar or does some small variation of it themselves. It's encouraging and I think helps other farmers think they may want to read up on it more too. It's hard if someone, like me, who just has more cattle and pasture experience tries to say maybe it will work with crops as that opens it to "No, stick with pastures.". But when other arable guys say, yes, it can have benefits, I think everyone can learn more!

Definitely has limiting factors in the idea. Location, weather, crops, markets, initial input and output costs.... But these affect every management style really so it's just going to come to who's willing to invest/risk in what. I've also noticed many of the, lets call them soil entrepreneurs, are younger farmers. This could come down to it being as simple as many may be new farmers and not stuck in the idea of "well this is how it's done" or, I think even more likely, don't have the ability to invest in large equipment and land amounts. As an example, I don't really have the capital or want to invest in a manure spread and tractor to cart my cow poop around and fertilize with it. Much easier and beneficial to have the cows spread it themselves, they're labour in exchange for food. Similarly if newer farmers can get the soil to produce and manage itself better, with fewer input requirements like N, then they aren't going to need to invest in the equipment for application, paying someone to apply it or the N itself.

Pros and Cons to all approaches for sure.

Blaithin, it appears as though youare leaning toward Milpa farmingthat was practiced in the Yucatan Peninsula. Historically they plant in a hole, a bean or pea for nitrogen to feed a corn plant that in turn provided shade for a melon. A complete system, Interesting!

Yes, the Iroquois did the same in the Great Lakes area. I learnt about it way back in elementary school sometime and it's stuck with me ever since. Native cultures without their knowledge of why it really worked, could still see it does work. It's a fairly good visionary example to use for companion planting so I like it for that. We do better as a species when we can visualize something.

This summer I want to try the cotton underwear experiment and see what that visualizes. I'll choose a couple of locations around my place where plant growth is good, poor, mediocre, etc and bury some white, cotton underwear. The experiment revolves around how active is the soil biome, the micro fauna living and helping the health of the soil. The healthier and livelier the soil, the quicker the underwear will decompose. I'm also hoping to get a couple local crop guys let me bury some in their fields. "Excuse me sir, can I bury some underwear in your barley?" Who here is in Central AB? Lol

Soil is just so complex. It doesn't always matter if you're supplying a nutrient if the plants can't access it in that form. If it's not healthy and functioning normally you may be able to supply it with everything you think it should need but it may not be able to use it well or at all. My cow comparison is giving a cow oral CMPK when she's in milk fever. If her rumen isn't functioning then supplying something orally won't be any help, you have to supply it in another form, such as IV.

[GDR]

Blaithin, you may have stopped your thread dead with the underwear talk, now you got all us guys nervous! LOL.

To expand your thought further, you can do the same with your cows. On the same pasture you can add sheep without reducing your cow numbers and your animal units per acre go up. Yes they do both eat grass but the sheep prefer the weeds and woody plants and cows prefer the grasses.

On the crop side my father used to grow peas with his oats on clean ground, worked good and peas stood up.

Lots of options but most are not suited well to the large scale of farms these days.