Hydrogen fuel cells

[Klause]

Amazing the amount of power you can get out of a home-brew fuel cell.


Simple to build.

Water is the only byproduct.

Generating hydrogen from solar/wind is easy enough too.

Imagine running a farm on a swarm of 'bots' that have only water as an emission... and no fuel to buy.

[quadtrac]

Giver

[sumdumguy]

Klause for king!

[farmaholic]

I have a question.

If it's so easy....why isn't it being done or replaced fossil fuels already?

It isn't a "new" concept.

I don't buy the Oil Industry squashing it argument either.

[macdon02]

It's not the environment that's the issue it's tax. No way are alternatives going to be allowed if no way of taxing. Big oil is govts workhorse and in exchange they got a monopoly. I find the history of prohibition, ethanol, Ford/Diesel(the men) very interesting and explains how we got where we are. Crude by products where not the original fuel sources, was all plant based. One option that's being mentioned is taxation by mile. Gps or odometer readings to govt at time of licencing. The electric/ hybrids are already cutting into revenue so they need another scheme

[biglentil]

I have a question.

If it's so easy....why isn't it being done or replaced fossil fuels already?

It isn't a "new" concept.

I don't buy the Oil Industry squashing it argument either.

Generating hydrogen as a way to store solar or wind energy is not efficient nor easy. Hydrogen is very light and to get decent energy density it must be compressed to a very high pressure, think hydrogen bomb. Why not use the generated electricity without converting to another form of energy? Well the problem is battery technology. Lithium ion batteries get us closer but still have their drawbacks. Like recharge time, cost, and occassionaly spontaneously combusting.

The more a guy researches the subject the more attractive diesel fuel looks as an energy source. Its relatively safe, has a high energy density, is easy to store and pump, fairly reliable. Solar and wind just do not cut it. Often the wind does not blow and sky becomes cloudy. Until we discover cold fusion, can extract energy from the ether or wirelessly transmit large quantities of electricity there will not be a viable alternative to fossil fuels. Hydrogen fuel is a pipe dream imo.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

I have a question.

If it's so easy....why isn't it being done or replaced fossil fuels already?

It isn't a "new" concept.

I don't buy the Oil Industry squashing it argument either.

Because fuel cells are not an energy source, therefore cannot replace another actual energy source such as fossil fuels. They are a very inefficient means of converting energy into a form that can be stored.

The green side likes to trot out fuel cells as somehow solving an energy production problem. Similar to how they misrepresent electric cars as being emissions free.

[pourfarmer]

Generating hydrogen as a way to store solar or wind energy is not efficient nor easy. Hydrogen is very light and to get decent energy density it must be compressed to a very high pressure, think hydrogen bomb. Why not use the generated electricity without converting to another form of energy? Well the problem is battery technology. Lithium ion batteries get us closer but still have their drawbacks. Like recharge time, cost, and occassionaly spontaneously combusting.

The more a guy researches the subject the more attractive diesel fuel looks as an energy source. Its relatively safe, has a high energy density, is easy to store and pump, fairly reliable. Solar and wind just do not cut it. Often the wind does not blow and sky becomes cloudy. Until we discover cold fusion, can extract energy from the ether or wirelessly transmit large quantities of electricity there will not be a viable alternative to fossil fuels. Hydrogen fuel is a pipe dream imo.

He gets it, not only is using 'free' electricity to generate hydrogen almost a net loss but it is a very dangerous energy store.

[Klause]

He gets it, not only is using 'free' electricity to generate hydrogen almost a net loss but it is a very dangerous energy store.

Not really.

Not anymore.

There's 8 types of hydrogen fuel cells. Some of the exotic ones are very efficient... The US military uses fuel cells to power all their bases because it's incredibly "clean" power... and when you count on heat usage efficiency is on the order of 85%


You can make diesel and gas cars work on hydrogen too... Injected through the airstream. Go from 10mpg to 60+


There's also a very big difference between hydrogen storage and a hydrogen bomb. Equating the two is silly.


You can store the hydrogen in the form of NH3 too. Makes it inert.


Armchair scientists on here... yet DARPA, SCRAM, and the AATIC have it figured out...

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Not really.

Not anymore.

There's 8 types of hydrogen fuel cells. Some of the exotic ones are very efficient... The US military uses fuel cells to power all their bases because it's incredibly "clean" power... and when you count on heat usage efficiency is on the order of 85%


You can make diesel and gas cars work on hydrogen too... Injected through the airstream. Go from 10mpg to 60+


There's also a very big difference between hydrogen storage and a hydrogen bomb. Equating the two is silly.


You can store the hydrogen in the form of NH3 too. Makes it inert.


Armchair scientists on here... yet DARPA, SCRAM, and the AATIC have it figured out...

Perhaps the terminology is confusing me. You state the bases are powered by fuel cells, that may very well be true, but what is the energy source for the fuel cells?

[pourfarmer]

Not really.

Not anymore.

There's 8 types of hydrogen fuel cells. Some of the exotic ones are very efficient... The US military uses fuel cells to power all their bases because it's incredibly "clean" power... and when you count on heat usage efficiency is on the order of 85%


You can make diesel and gas cars work on hydrogen too... Injected through the airstream. Go from 10mpg to 60+


There's also a very big difference between hydrogen storage and a hydrogen bomb. Equating the two is silly.


You can store the hydrogen in the form of NH3 too. Makes it inert.


Armchair scientists on here... yet DARPA, SCRAM, and the AATIC have it figured out...

Read here: https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/fuel-cell-technologies-office-plans-implementation-and-results and here: https://www.defensenews.com/land/2017/04/03/hydrogen-fuel-cell-technology-could-bring-stealth-to-army-vehicles/

You will see that commercial fuel cells are still in infancy stage of development. Especially in regards to safety. US Mil still testing as of this spring, with no launch date predicted. Sounds like they don't quite 'have it figured out'.

Another important note, is hydrogen fuel cells still require an energy source. Therefore, we can not make statements about efficiency of a fuel cell. Efficiency is going to depend on all the variables of the type of energy being used as 'charger'.

You can make gasoline engines run on hydrogen, this is nothing new. However the electrical power from your 12v battery/alternator that is needed to convert h2o into h2 will soon have you realising the first law of thermodynamics.

[Klause]

Read here: https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/fuel-cell-technologies-office-plans-implementation-and-results and here: https://www.defensenews.com/land/2017/04/03/hydrogen-fuel-cell-technology-could-bring-stealth-to-army-vehicles/

You will see that commercial fuel cells are still in infancy stage of development. Especially in regards to safety. US Mil still testing as of this spring, with no launch date predicted. Sounds like they don't quite 'have it figured out'.

Another important note, is hydrogen fuel cells still require an energy source. Therefore, we can not make statements about efficiency of a fuel cell. Efficiency is going to depend on all the variables of the type of energy being used as 'charger'.

You can make gasoline engines run on hydrogen, this is nothing new. However the electrical power from your 12v battery/alternator that is needed to convert h2o into h2 will soon have you realising the first law of thermodynamics.

There's planes flying on fuel cells today. You aren't going to find this tech by searching google.

Why would you be generating the hydrogen on the vehicle? Although in Australia, they have put solar panels on a car, generate power to split water at a rate fast enough to power the vehicle.

And New Holland has the NH2 tractor.

http://www.thecleanenergyleader.com/en/nh2_tm_hydrogen/hydrogenenergy.html http://www.thecleanenergyleader.com/en/nh2_tm_hydrogen/hydrogenenergy.html


And Doosan has these...
http://www.doosanfuelcell.com/en/fuel-cell-solutions/purecell-system/ http://www.doosanfuelcell.com/en/fuel-cell-solutions/purecell-system/

Fuel cells are ideal technology for northern areas where you have a lack of wind/sun in winter, and a surplus of both in summer. Generate, store, then use in winter and as a side-effect produce all the heat required for the building.

The tech available to the public isn't anywhere near as advanced as military technology.

[tmyrfield]

This is why...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWeO1q0gHJE http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWeO1q0gHJE

[pourfarmer]

There's planes flying on fuel cells today. You aren't going to find this tech by searching google.

Why would you be generating the hydrogen on the vehicle? Although in Australia, they have put solar panels on a car, generate power to split water at a rate fast enough to power the vehicle.

And New Holland has the NH2 tractor.

http://www.thecleanenergyleader.com/en/nh2_tm_hydrogen/hydrogenenergy.html http://www.thecleanenergyleader.com/en/nh2_tm_hydrogen/hydrogenenergy.html


And Doosan has these...
http://www.doosanfuelcell.com/en/fuel-cell-solutions/purecell-system/ http://www.doosanfuelcell.com/en/fuel-cell-solutions/purecell-system/

Fuel cells are ideal technology for northern areas where you have a lack of wind/sun in winter, and a surplus of both in summer. Generate, store, then use in winter and as a side-effect produce all the heat required for the building.

The tech available to the public isn't anywhere near as advanced as some of the stuff in military applications.... Like planes that don't have to land for months.

How will you store the hydrogen in the vehicle, if you cant generate it on board? How much will you need complete a 400km trip? What operating pressure is the tank running at? Will it need to be cooled after decompression? What happens if you get rear ended by a Tahoe?

The NH tractor shows an on board pressure vessel to store hydrogen, no talk of psi or usage per tank. The prototype was developed in 2008/09, and is being tested on a farm in Italy. They're converting biomass to hydrogen, an ideal model... however you could not get me to sit 4ft behind a hydrogen pressure vessel.

The doosan fuel cell converts nat gas to hydrogen, their model is highly skewed. When compared of other nat gas generators, they show heat as being lost when that is rarely the case as heat exchanges are widely used in generating stations. Of course, the model shows their heat as being usable, even though it is less % then the conventional nat gas generators. Fancy foot work and pretty graphics makes you forget nat gas generators are one of the most efficient ways to generate heat and electricity. This is simply marketing, I expect there will be tax incentives to purchase things like the doosan purecell, when a standard nat gas generator with a heat exchanger is almost 5% more efficient and sells for a fraction of the cost.

I like the idea of a fuel cell, like a super battery. But as it sits right now, with the info that's available to me as a farmer/consumer, I think I will wait for others to validate the tech, my opinion is based wholly on operator/user safety.

[biglentil]

Even at 10,000 psi, the best achievable energy density of hydrogen with current high-pressure tanks is about 15 percent of the energy content of gasoline in the same given volume.

Sound cheap and easy to you guys? Oh wait just use your alternator to constantly produce it. Lol