A chance to act on seed saving/end point royalties etc

[farmaholic]

I can see the seed business going a couple of different directions...at first there could be a tidal wave of new releases...all SeedCo breeders wanting a piece of the action...all making "claims" there seed is superior to the "competition's"(ah-hem gag choke puke).

Then when they have everyone accustomed to paying for seed every year, either through end point royalties or farm saved seed royalties, they will throttle back on breeding "new" varieties and milk dry their current ones they have full control over.

Then you will get the onslaught of varieties that promises to be better than the current ones...for more money...of course. Sound familiar...like the canola seed model. Rebranding and renaming the same old shit for more money with little product improvement.

Or remember Liberty 5440. When it first came out it sold for about $8/lb. It was a fairly good variety and it lasted long enough in the market that that same variety was selling for about $11/lb when they finally decided to discontinue it. The price of it was dragged up with be ever increasing price of the "new and improved" successors. The Seedco was doing so well with it they even resurrected it because they were going to discontinue it...why not...they were selling an old variety at the new price without having to invest anymore money into it.

Don't get me wrong there has been advancements in canola varieties from the first ones put out but according to the advertising propaganda and seed trial data the yeilds should be "exponentially" higher...like the seed costs are...LOL!!!!!

[bucket]

Yup. Big bad agribusiness company spend $100 of millions to create a new variety so you can buy 100 bus of seed for $1000 and clean it forever.

There was close to 10 billion dollars left in the field after the shitty weather in September and October and this is the way people justify ensuring agribusiness gets more of our dollars


Not one ****ing variety maintained grade or yield by sitting out weathering....so we should give them more....

Without performance guarantees and acceptance of responsibility of dud varieties or **** ups like the Triffid adventure they can't really ask for more....

The triffid event cost my farm 10s of thousand of dollars between testing, new varieties or reconstituted varieties and more importantly lost markets....the bill came to me ...not the scientists or agribusinesses that spent the so called 100s of millions using checkoff dollars and taxpayer dollars to create the ****ing mess...

None of them were held responsible....this idea of more costs to the farm is off base...

Unless you enjoy the idea of the Syngenta lawsuit to settle everything...maybe you like lawyers fees...just another cost to the farm that doesn't help overall production...

these so called agribusinesses that spend 100s of millions for new varieties ....AGT never paid full development costs of their private label King Red lentils and neither did any other processor that got private label varieties financed through saskpulse checkoffs...

Try again????

And when do the agribusinesses pay for their misleading advertising when a variety comes up short of their claims.....is that written into the new law....recalls and reimbursement for their ****ups????

[grassfarmer]

Grassy, every time one of the bulls that you bought sires a calf on your farm do you have to send the breeder a "royalty" when you sell it's progeny? Or do you have to send the breeder a per cow breeding fee for every cow he impregnated? Year in year out....

I'm not a bull buyer I'm a seedstock bull seller. There is a parallel in the cattle business - where people sell semen off a bull that is promoted as being "a great one". Customers pay for the semen then pay again if they want to register a calf off it - a $50 or $100 "certificate fee". I'm the other way - breeding the genetics as good as we can to work in a real world environment and then pricing them low so that the commercial rancher can make money off them.
That's why we should have public plant breeding.

[bucket]

I'm not a bull buyer I'm a seedstock bull seller. There is a parallel in the cattle business - where people sell semen off a bull that is promoted as being "a great one". Customers pay for the semen then pay again if they want to register a calf off it - a $50 or $100 "certificate fee". I'm the other way - breeding the genetics as good as we can to work in a real world environment and then pricing them low so that the commercial rancher can make money off them.
That's why we should have public plant breeding.

When you buy a purebred bull and he performs well..when he is done he is still worth something....

Not so in buying new seed with these royalties attached ....it becomes worthless to the average grain farmer...by either deregistering it or by having to buy another lease on a new variety...

Maybe thats where the ****heads get their ideas ...leasing trucks or seed...whats the difference ?

[jazz]

There is a solution. Go around the canadian terminal system. Cant apply a seed royalty to what doesnt arrive at the pit.

Let the chinese take it out in containers or truck it to ND. Our transport costs would be less taking it out on the Mississippi anyway than banging our heads against the rockies.

[Rareearth]

- we can all agree that it costs more for plant breeding than in the past. Or can we with CRISPER the whole process is accelerated, half the time in the lab and half in the field to confirm hypothesis. So maybe it’s actually cheaper and faster to produce new varieties?

- how are the end point royalties going to be collected in foreign countries? There has been documented cases of corn seed leaving the research plots in the USA for other destinations C....

Wonder if they change the variety name, if everything is ok then?
Most countries buy on price and quality, they will not enforce, monitor or even care who has the “patent” ?

- it has been suggested that to keep ahead we have to spend and invest more, “trust me “, what other countries have legit breeding programs that could compromise the breeding companies market share, effectiveness and competitiveness for Canadian growers?

- Eastern Europe Russia, Ukraine, Kasikstan, etc why bother, they have companies set up in Saskatoon and else where to export the newest and best. They hire agroligists saskatchewan to show them “how too”, where why and how. Plus financial advisors, etc. Equipment manufactures, that’s how you grow your company.

- Clause has talked about Argentina, the only problems they have are currency, government, corruption etc

- India, Pakistan, Europe, Brazil, Australia, etc which countries are truly contributing to plant breeding, and which ones have an office, lab, few employees for show?

- if the majors want exclusive varieties, royalties, etc then provide a true harmonized system where all seed and chemicals are sold at the same price! Level the playing field. Sell in every country based on the dreaded US dollar. The vast majority of insecticides, herbicides, Biologicals are being manufactured in India and China. One formulation plant in Regina, bring home the manufacturing jobs to Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, if all this research is being done here.

We don’t need a system where they charge what the market can absorb, we see this all the time with our Fertilizer industry, prices based on Florida or New Orleans, plus freight, currency etc because we are a captive market. The cost to produce N has Never been less.

- feels like trying to maximize share holder value. In the case of farmer funded or public funded breeders it’s assumed private sector can’t do it as well as private, ?

With producer funds in Sask the breeding is done with the Crop Development Center.
- is this CDC owned by the UofS ?
- does CDC support and promotes upov?
- to what extent, how many dollars go to general revenue from CDC? Or simply asked, how much money are they making? Is government supporting upov for this reason, less need for their funds?

Vandervalk, you are correct in how the system is being utilized. Your farm might have equity to offset the increased costs. It’s not going to help or improve your competitiveness growing, canola, barley etc. There used to be (still is?) a strong livestock sector. Why are corn ddg displacing barley, not enough barley breeding or research? Where did all the packing plants go? This is what’s happening to crop farmers, we are having it handed to us by competing exporters, in other countries that grow our varieties ( or similar), it’s competativeness issues and battles that are of utmost importance!

[bucket]

Why don't we just all start putting in timesheet and be paid for the work we do.....

This is ****ing stupid already ...everyone just keeps asking for more...

Fuel, Fertilizer, machinery,

We have all become margin farmers...

Meanwhile in the capitalist business side of things...the railways get grain cars at a guaranteed profit....they could call a scrap yard and make money...AGT buys a railway and gets it repaired from the government...

But primary producers are a proud bunch and are more than willing to mortgage their farms against the treasuries of other countries....


Holy **** is all I can say...

[foragefarmer]

Walk

"Yup. Big bad agribusiness company spend $100 of millions to create a new variety so you can buy 100 bus of seed for $1000 and clean it forever."

No surprise you would get a response from any member of the WCWGA such as this. Seems a few of them attended Syngenta’s Grower University 1 & 2.

So of course the former students at Syngenta Grower University are not going to forget who to defend in UPOV '91 Plant Breeders Rights Act.

I'll be willing to bet the farm that WCWGA receives funding from many large Agro business' to lobby governments on their behalf to get their agendas heard and put through. We all know how the WCWGA had the ear of Ritz Cracker the whole time he was Ag minister. How many Ag programs were cut during the Ostrich Farmers reign?

SK 3 started this thread Oct 29 "Farm-saved seed royalties are next battleground! F#$K YOU enough is enough."

Never heard a peep from Walk concerning that thread, but when Grassy brings it forward and mentions the NFU and L Weber shoot's him down, low and behold Walk appears.

I guess it must have been Walk's week off from reading Agriville when Sk3 started his thread and he just must have miss it. We've been bless with Walk's present twice in a week, lucky us.

[Braveheart]

I think legally seed co's have a problem. The case would be, as example, I buy Brandon seed and PBR allows levies at first purchase. I clean progeny and breeder wants fees now. That Brandon progeny is now a generation removed. Is it even pure? Has there been cross contamination? Can anyone guarantee it's genetically pure Brandon? Will it even perform? Once it goes in our dirt it's our property. Period.

Also on the legal side, seed is already very expensive. If this comes to pass, varieties with high cost, end point, trailing contracts etc must assume performance guarantees. Producer files non performance claim when variety lacking. Seed companies must as well back off. Liability would be HUGE. Most farms would have a case every year.

[bucket]

Walk

"Yup. Big bad agribusiness company spend $100 of millions to create a new variety so you can buy 100 bus of seed for $1000 and clean it forever."

No surprise you would get a response from any member of the WCWGA such as this. Seems a few of them attended Syngenta’s Grower University 1 & 2.

So of course the former students at Syngenta Grower University are not going to forget who to defend in UPOV '91 Plant Breeders Rights Act.

I'll be willing to bet the farm that WCWGA receives funding from many large Agro business' to lobby governments on their behalf to get their agendas heard and put through. We all know how the WCWGA had the ear of Ritz Cracker the whole time he was Ag minister. How many Ag programs were cut during the Ostrich Farmers reign?


SK 3 started this thread Oct 29 "Farm-saved seed royalties are next battleground! F#$K YOU enough is enough."

Never heard a peep from Walk concerning that thread, but when Grassy brings it forward and mentions the NFU and L Weber shoot's him down, low and behold Walk appears.

I guess it must have been Walk's week off from reading Agriville when Sk3 started his thread and he just must have miss it. We've been bless with Walk's present twice in a week, lucky us.

Thats it ...now I get it ...wasnt sure sure but the WCWGA won't defend their absolute incompetence as a lark to Gerry Ritz on behalf of their funding partners...

They will gladly walk into the chamber and unfortunately for the rest of us to our demise as well...

"""Fool me once shame on you,,, fool me twice shame on me....""

[bucket]

Yup. Big bad agribusiness company spend $100 of millions to create a new variety so you can buy 100 bus of seed for $1000 and clean it forever.

Thats your argument ...holy ****....Farmers spend billions every ****ing year and there is no guarantee they get that money back....

Seems you don't understand something....the primary producer has to make money for the rest of the system to function properly....and that may include some adhoc payments from governments occasionally...

No different that Bombardier, the railways , the graincos, etc etc etc....No capitalist business in Canada works without help available from government.....Not one.

[vvalk]

Thats your argument ...holy ****....Farmers spend billions every ****ing year and there is no guarantee they get that money back....

Seems you don't understand something....the primary producer has to make money for the rest of the system to function properly....and that may include some adhoc payments from governments occasionally...

No different that Bombardier, the railways , the graincos, etc etc etc....No capitalist business in Canada works without help available from government.....Not one.

Yes that is my argument. You have never gone to a seed grower and picked up a 3 ton of seed. Grow it on 40 or 80 acres to clean seed for the 1500 or 2000 acres and then clean that seed for the next 3-5 years. You expect companies to invest in research with a model like that. No one is forcing you to buy or pay end point rolaties on any seed. Your free to use existing varieties. Why not bitch about the WGRF and all the stolen farmers money they have? Where are their new varieties or beeeding programs?
Most on here bitch about canola seed costs and the whole system yet bitch that rotations are pushed too far and that if we lose canola do to clubroot we are in trouble since canola is our most profitable crop. Which is it? Newest most expensive varieties always sell out first
Lastly on comments against the Wcwga. Do you think the very successful farmer directors, who spend their own money to sit on that board do to budget restrictions, want to see profits reduced?

[bucket]

Yes that is my argument. You have never gone to a seed grower and picked up a 3 ton of seed. Grow it on 40 or 80 acres to clean seed for the 1500 or 2000 acres and then clean that seed for the next 3-5 years. You expect companies to invest in research with a model like that. No one is forcing you to buy or pay end point rolaties on any seed. Your free to use existing varieties. Why not bitch about the WGRF and all the stolen farmers money they have? Where are their new varieties or beeeding programs?
Most on here bitch about canola seed costs and the whole system yet bitch that rotations are pushed too far and that if we lose canola do to clubroot we are in trouble since canola is our most profitable crop. Which is it? Newest most expensive varieties always sell out first
Lastly on comments against the Wcwga. Do you think the very successful farmer directors, who spend their own money to sit on that board do to budget restrictions, want to see profits reduced?

Fair comments but answer these for the Pro side of this debate...I watched the Munk debate the other night so I am thinking of following that in another thread .....

1. Who pays for the varietal duds that show up time to time ? I can name two instances that the developer or seed grower onset pick up varietal duds....the primary producer does...misleading advertising?

2. Who pays for the **** up like the triffid issue...the government didn't help one primary producer out on that.

3. Should their be a rethink of funding...I will concede the WGRF extracts too much of farmers money but then again so does the CGC...we can agree on that...

4. Do we need all these checkoffs and then still pay higher prices for seed consider our upfront "seed" money to start the process?

[bucket]

One other comment is that our so called customers don't want quality nor quantity any more...

Durum isn't moving and neither are pulses....Maybe a reset is required as to where our dollars are going to help move these volumes....

Seems senseless that we had a reputation of high quality grains and our base grades keep falling...

[macdon02]

This is ****ed. If your of age yoy have several years left before the finish line you have to ask yourself where is this industry headed? If your close to the finish line you have ask if you want all your retirement eggs in 1 basket. We got govt hunting for taxes, fingers in our bank accounts, suppliers that are trying to get a bigger cut off the host. Bring the reset with crash and burn. It's time to reassess the business model and make changes. When's bigger no longer better? NOW!