Commodities VS Products

[TOM4CWB]

Charlie;

Here is where I am going:

More of the same DTN Article

"In Japan, the test-all policy, started soon after the September 2001 announcement of Japan's first BSE case, was originally thought to be overkill by Japanese experts. It involves testing each year about 1.2 million cows that are sent to the slaughterhouse.

"At first, we proposed testing only 900,000 cattle," recalls Professor Takashi Onodera, a molecular immunologist at the University of Tokyo who heads a BSE governmental advisory panel. "The politicians in the (ruling) Liberal Democratic Party pushed for testing all. Since it only meant another 300,000 cows, we agreed."

Professor Onodera is one of a number of scientists who say the test results of Japan's last two mad cow cases -- numbers eight and nine -- may mean that they have found a "a new form of the prion causing the disease." In essence, the Japanese scientists think there may be different strains of BSE, with some showing up in younger animals.

The test that found BSE in Japan's last two cases is called Western Blotting, and it is used in some European countries as well. Among its advantages over the Gold Standard test are speed -- results in hours instead of weeks -- and price (less than a fourth the Gold Standard test). The lower price allows many more animals to be tested without increasing the cost. In Western Blotting a brain-tissue specimen is liquefied and then treated with a special mixture that degrades normal prions, leaving only the BSE-specific abnormal prions in the specimen.

Onodera and some other scientists believe Western Blotting should be the new "gold standard."...

USDA is not convinced.

At a press conference, USDA chief veterinarian Ronald Dehaven, questioned the Japanese test results for the the last two BSE cases. "They (the Japanese) have reported them as positive, and yet both of those animals were negative on the immuno-histo chemistry test, the test that is internationally recognized as the gold standard test. They have been positive on other tests," he said, referring to the Western Blotting tests....

Onodera is waiting for the results of more extensive experiments being conducted in Japan by two government laboratories -- The National Institute of Infectious Diseases and the National Institute of Animal Health. They have started scientific tests by infecting "transgenic" mice with the suspect BSE tissue, but the results won't be available until later this year at the earliest.

In the meantime, the world just has to wait for further developments. BSE has proven to be a maddeningly fickle pathogen and it does not grow very rapidly even in laboratory conditions. In the eyes of many Japanese consumers, Japan's test-all policy is proving its worth, at least in easing consumer worries about eating beef. What worries scientists is that Japan is just beginning to see the results of having fed cattle with meat and bone feed -- the chief suspect in spreading BSE. Japan banned it only after the first case was found in September 2001. The government is still trying to locate and destroy stockpiles of the feed.

It is unclear just what the U.S. will propose next week when a senior delegation from the USDA arrives for talks with their Japanese counterparts. But on the critical question of testing methods, the governments are very far apart.

Onodera has his own test: "Will you eat meat from a cow that tests negative on one test and positive on the other?""



How about you Charlie, would you serve beef to your best freinds or their children, if it tested positive to the Japaneese "Western Blotting tests"?


Is this not the real question to be asked here?

[TOM4CWB]

Charlie;

I see this on another DTN article;

"When Will Mexico Open Border?
01/16 15:11
Jerry Hagstrom

DTN Political Correspondent

WASHINGTON (DTN) -- Agriculture Secretary Veneman's press conference with the Canadian and Mexican agriculture ministers today ended in confusion over when and how Mexico might reopen the border to U.S. beef...."

"Told by a reporter that other countries' decisions to close their border to U.S. beef was no different than the way the United States has acted in reaction to BSE in other countries and ...

reminded that the United States still refuses to accept Japanese beef even though Japan tests every animal for BSE...,

Veneman said it was "true" that the United States has excluded meat from other countries. But Veneman said that when BSE was first discovered in Europe, much less was known about the disease and it was on a much bigger scale.

Veneman declined to discuss any proposals the United States might present to Japan. U.S. officials are expected to visit Japan next week to discuss BSE."

What a mess Charlie...

We in North America are a bunch arrogant ...

[parsley]

charliep,

Tracebacks are and can be done by industry, groups, individuals etc. IP systems are in place for some segments. Trademarking has been in place for a long time. Or organic IP. where there is an industry certification requirement in place, but certification is not a specific government function. It's self-policed. Trust is the chip of commerce here. Trust is the only valuable tool that makes this system work.

BUT there are legislative requirements that are in place, too. For example, national legislation like CWB licensing requirements. Or food inspection. Or say, meat inspection.It is a legislated, federal system. You can't kill 1000 steers in your back yard and sell them to safeway without inspection.

Here is where the system has gone amiss. CFIA has not done their job when it has come to meat. What if the inspectors not only NOT inspect the killed 1000 steers in your back yard that are sold to Safeway, but they allow you to feed them nuclear waste? Consumers either trust or they don't. In this case, they don't. Internationally, they don't and this is the huge problem.

Traditionally, in Canada. the public have been less trusting of the private sector and more trusting of Government, I think, because Governments supposedly had an arm's lengh role to play in inspection etc.

Their role has deteriorated,particularly in the last decade, because Governments increasingly, have become partners with the private sector. You cannot perform a proper regulatory function if you have an investment arm at risk; thus the regulatory arm becomes ineffective.

Hence, the private sector has assumed a much larger self-regulation role, is my observation.

Federal and Provincial Governments cannot be prime investors as well as sole regulators, because buyers will simply go elsewhere. Just an observation.

Parsley

[TOM4CWB]

Charlie;

Third parties quality control systems like SGS has developed... need to be encouraged.

SGS is the third party arbitator in Canadian grain transactions... to solve CGC quality issues in the export countries we ship to... I have heard.

Perhaps such a testing system for meat needs to be created... with certificates of testing and quality on beef going to Japan. This way If we meet the quality standards Japan requires... SGS could certify this beef free of BSE... using Japanese standards...

And the beef export markets could be reopened for our industry to Japan.

Specialty processors may be needed for IP processing to fulfill these requirements... so be it.

Again the "commodity" mentality has cost us billions in Canada, not only in the beef sector... but also the with specialty wheat and barley shipments.

[cowman]

TOM: If we have a system that creates in essence a two tiered inspection, then quite frankly I as a Canadian consumer, would want the higher standard also? If its good enough for the Japanese, then that is the product I want! Not the inferior product, only good enough for North America?
We compromize food safety at our own peril. And it does not matter if the "science" says food safety is not compromized. The "perception" that it has been compromized is much more important? Because if no ones buying, it doesn't matter one iota what the "science" says? Now so far they are buying, but more cases of BSE could rapidly change that? And with the added testing we definitely should get more cases...the "science" says that! Now if this added testing is in fact bogus and in reality shoot,shovel, shutup then we might be able to con the public? I hope that doesn't happen because I would hate to think I am part of an industry that is in reality a shell game.

[charliep]

How did I get the roll of representing the dark side? Hopefully people realize that I am simply providing another view and trying to generate discussion.

I have to look for the logic in things.

1) The consumer is Canada is not walking away from beef? If anything, beef consumption is increasing at the expense of other meets. Further, I would argue that trade restrictions are government decisions based on a whole bunch of issues and not a consumer one. A Japanese/US store cannot make a purchase decision even on a labeled product.

2) Again it comes down to risk factors. BSE is found in mostly specified risk material and minimally in meat cuts (my understanding as a layman). Similarly, the expression of disease only occurs in older animals (don't know if this number is 20 months, 30 months, etc.).

3) Is guaranteeing a 100 % (not 99.9999%) risk free realistic? We can name dozens of products (tobacco, alcohol, etc.) that kill thousands of people every year in horrible ways and yet they are still sold. As farm managers, you bring family, friends and employees onto your farm into situations that are potentially risky. You have protocols including training to ensure people are safe but the guarantee is not 100 %.

4) With regards to your question would I intentionally feed my guests beef I knew had BSE, the answer would be no. Looking at my behavior (and those of my urban neighbors), I have increased beef consumption. I have no trouble telling my urban neighbors I have confidence in our food safety systems both today and their ability to adapt to new realities. If through testing BSE is found to more of an issue than expected, then I will seek out beef products that have tracking protocols and which I can have confidence (my choice as a consumer realizing that beef costs relative to other meats/protein sources may increase and my consumption will decrease similarly). If the BSE became an epedemic, I would stop eating beef.

Just as a final question, what is the objective of testing? Satisfy consumer needs at the perception level? Ensure food safety? Identify the level of the problem? Find and weed out BSE infected animals to ensure it doesn't spread?

[TOM4CWB]

Charlie;

Perception is Reality... and 99% of Canadians have the money to pay a little more to satisfy the testing costs.

Export markets are critical for Beef producers in Alberta... and Japan is the #1 market we need to open back up.

Obviously if we meet Japan's strict standards... exports generally will open.

We cannot continuously loose $300-500/beef animal this is not sustainable!

$30 - 50/Animal to do the BSE test Japan requires is 10X less loss, and will give the assurance that we will spare no cost to make sure our product is the safest in the World!

If we make the claim, shouldn't we back it up with integrety through testing all animals?

I am not picking on you Charlie... but the hard questions must be asked... because BSE affects my grain prices... my community... and hurts my neighbours... which is why I care.

If one of my children got the BSE human desease, because I did not stand up for what was right and safe... what kind of a person would I be in my mind... and what kind of Judgement will I receive for this stupidity for eternity after I am dead and gone?

[charliep]

Too much by me but a couple of other ideas.

1) I am very cautious in what I say to consumers in light of the trust that Parsley talks about. A tough road to go down in the current situation.

2) Within our group (Stategic Information Services), 50 % of our resources are allocated to consumer research with BSE a top priority.

3) With the BSE challenge comes opportunities. Opportunities around processing older animals. New markets for front end cuts (again, I highlight Tom4cwb was eating a pot roast). Incentives for entrepreneurs to create new products and protocols that meet consumer needs better and provide better margins. The challenge is the blend of government (create the framework) and private industry (establish a profitable business).

If you haven't gone there, many of the other threads (beef production, etc) have had excellent discussions on these issues.

[parsley]

With the European Union banning beef from cattle given synthetic growth harmones, due to a number of studies showing that meat is a human health risk, do you think it would be good business for the cattlemen to take a close look at NOT using growth harmones?

Consumer question asked that needs to be addressed is:

Because growth harmones make a definite impact upon young steers and heifers and bulls, what impact does it have upon young children eating them?

This question is one the the consumer asks. What does a cowman say?

NO published studies were undertaken before growth harmones were released,I understand.

Parsley

[cowman]

I believe the science says these hormones are completely safe and occur in such small traces that they are harmless. I have seen charts that show broccoli contains higher hormone levels than found in cattle.
Having said all that I will admit I stopped using hormone implants in the early nineties. Without a doubt they worked and I was using about the mildest one available! Synovex C.
My problem with them was the little steer calves tended to look like bodybuilders and the heifer calves all became sexually active at about 3-400 lbs. In fact the little steers were extremely "sexual"! Acted like a bunch of young bulls!
I just decided this was not very natural and I also got sick of having little heifers getting bred!
But I estimate the one implant probably added about 30 lbs. of weight...not bad for a $1.25 implant!
Of course my loss is someone elses gain as the calves would get an implant as soon as they hit the feedlot anyway! But for me it is something I don't want to deal with.
Oh and by the way I've never seen the brocolli trying to ride everything in the produce section! lol

[TOM4CWB]

Cowman;

The EU may have a point on growth hormones... it is not like meat will stop people from starving in the third world.

Take a look at this:

http://www.newfarm.org/news/0104/010904/cloned_cow.shtml

"BLACKSBURG, Virginia, January 8, 2004 (ENS): The scientist who cloned Dolly, the world's first cloned sheep, is now working to clone cattle that are genetically incapable of developing mad cow disease.
As government officials try to limit the economic and health risks related to the nation's first case of bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE), or mad cow disease, found in December 2003, researchers in the Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine (VMRCVM) at Virginia Tech are attempting to genetically engineer their way to a BSE free cow.

Associate professor Will Eyestone, who heads the VMRCVM's transgenic animal research program, is the molecular reproductive biologist who was senior research scientist for PPL The****utics, the organization that cloned Dolly.

Together with Bill Huckle, associate professor of biomedical science, Eyestone is using the same somatic cell transfer technology that PPL used to create Dolly and Mr. Jefferson, the first cloned calf to to clone a cow without normal prions."

I wonder what will be next.

Can't we just stop feeding our meat animals dead animals?

[parsley]

Cowman, We never used implants, so never observed first hand.

CNN reported a couple of weeks ago about doctors reporting that humans are starting to cycle at 8 years of age. Not just one or two cases either.

Maybe there is no link at all with growth harmones, but these are questions that the consumer wants addressed, that a cowmen had better be prepared to answer if he wants to keep market share.

Parsley

[cowman]

You know parsley, what can you do? The money in cattle is so poor a lot of guys need to squeeze out every buck. Now old buggers like me might not need to squeeze that nickel til it squeaks but then we are in the minority!
I just decided to hell with this! It is unnatural and it isn't right. So I gave up the extra $30 or $40 I might have made...fully knowing it wouldn't change one bloody thing. I guess I share TOMs philosophy...I believe there is more to this life than what happens here and we will be held accountable some day!

[TOM4CWB]

Cowman;

Being blessed is an interesting process.

If we give... we will recieve... pressed down and overflowing...

Standing on principal for what is just and right... and having the faith and self-control to obey principals of faith... is where blessings come from.

On this Hour has 22 Minutes is saw Goodale get a blast... which was meant in Jest by the 22 minute authors...

But;

There was some real truth behind what was said!

Goodale was at the Chamber of Commerce in Regina... and the report had Goodale blame Jean Chretien for something like this:

Mad Cow;
West Nile Virus;
Grasshoppers;
Drought;
Flood;
Ice Storm;
Trade Actions.

Brings to mind...

If my people who are called by my name would humble themselves... pray, and turn from their wicked ways, I will heal their land.

Guess what Chretien means Cowman?

If you guessed "Christian" you would be right... and I am told Jean means Chosen One. The PM's Office outlawed the use of the Name Jesus Christ... in armed forces chaplain's srvices for both the Swiss Air Disaster and 9-11 services.

Why do I bring this up?

Producing food for a hungry world... is much more easily accomplished if we are being blessed... rather than when we are under a curse!

AND it sure looks like the past couple of years fit into "being cursed" for many farms in Canada!

This is fitting that we talk of these issues on this topic;

Commodities VS Products ... because we grow special food products to bless the people who will eat it!

Not Commodities to get try to get rich!

But then I am Just a stupid farmer... who has never "marketed" any grain in his life... so said the CWB to me...

Do I make any sense Cowman?

[parsley]

cowman, I've needled for blackleg, and dragged them through showrings, and been charged by old cows you'd think were dead until they got their head up, and given whiskey by syringe to half-frozen calves in the middle of a January blizzard. But the old sonsaguns paid for the farm while the "final payments" couldn't, that's for sure.

Makes you wonder how Argentina used to tax agriculture to pay for their other industries! And they did.

I know this...Canadians love beef and barb-b-quing, including me. And every cowboy should put their heads together and decide the best way to 1. produce the kind of beef in demand and 2. promote the fact we're doing it.

Tie up every bloody government inspection man so he can't have any input. They are the ones who are responsible to seeing that the rules aren't being jiggled, and they are the root cause of the problems we're having with a jittery market.

If your're going to the Barley Growers meeting in Calgary next month, we'll have to indulge in a syringe full or two, strictly medicinal of course, and talk about it

Parsley