Seed Synergy... what does our Canadian seed system.. need to do?

[bucket]

Dear Bucket,
Hope your Christmas goes well in 2018... and 2019 brings many blessings and happiness.
Sincerely, Tom

TOM

Upon reflection I believe your christmas greetings are getting sidetracked from the issue...

You believe in taxing your neighbours while you enjoy the spoils of providing , without any responsibility or liability, varieties that may or may not perform on your customers famers as well as your promotion....


Its interesting to see seed farms providing certified seeds as well as common seed in the same ad on kijiji...

How does that work????

getting out of paying the royalty to the breeder or slippage as they like to call it in public....in private they like to call farmers thieves for doing the same thing...buying seed from the neighbours ....and after one year on most farms its no longer pure seed...

[TOM4CWB]

Dear Braveheart;
We have been told: The Feds have told the Seed Industry leaders... 'Status Quo' is not an option...
I agree much innovation and good varieties have resulted from the present system...
I am simply providing another forum to take information forward... I personally agree with many of the points raised here. Thx for your thoughts!
Sincerely,
Tom

This idea of end point royalties is a seriously bad idea:

This begins a dangerous precedent that farmers somehow are responsible for funding someone else's innovation and research. What next? Hours on tractors or combines taxed? Fertilizer or pesticide levies to further research? When did seed think they became so special that they don't risk their own investment? Once that "risk" is taken away, an industry develops a lazy, entitled identity not driven by entrepreneurial spirit.

The administration of collecting royalties will create a new burdensome bureaucracy adding costs beyond the royalties farmers will pay.

As usual with most poorly considered ideas, the opposite of the intended effect will occur. In this case, as many farms are struggling financially, farmers will look for routes to bypass royalties. They'll use farm saved seed, or older varieties that EPR doesn't apply to. So, instead of this "keep Canada competitive" crap that is being spouted, the opposite will occur.

The timing of this couldn't be worse. Farmers are dealing with higher fertilizer prices, higher property taxes, carbon taxes, higher machinery costs, etc. Mergers of input suppliers are seeing higher prices throughout as those new large companies have raised prices to make sure farmers pay for the acquisitions. Ultimately killing your customer isn't good for future business.

This just a bad idea. It is regressive not progressive. If the seed industry's business model hasn't been correct up till now how have they survived, and seemingly prospered, and produced good varieties.

There is no guarantee that extra money may go to research it may just end up as extra cash in company bank accounts.

There are more seed players than SeCan by the way.

It's a bad idea Tom.

[bucket]

Dear Braveheart;
We have been told: The Feds have told the Seed Industry leaders... 'Status Quo' is not an option...
I agree much innovation and good varieties have resulted from the present system...
I am simply providing another forum to take information forward... I personally agree with many of the points raised here. Thx for your thoughts!
Sincerely,
Tom

Tom

But it depends on how you twist it to your masters.....

I sat in the saskatoon meeting without having my questions answered publicly....if I wanted to speak in private I could have email the presenters....

2 or 3 farmers came up and mentioned that my questions were good but not answered....

I was pissed that day....poorly presented and little info. ...and limited discussion while the seed trade has been working on this for 10 years....and still got more time at the mike than average farmers....

[TOM4CWB]

Dear Bucket,
Our own farm income... the vast majority comes from commercial sales to commercial grain buyers... not seed sales. The assumption that there is some kind of golden profitable opportunity provided by some 'Seed Synergy' tax system...is simply in your imagination. Reality is our farm survives on commercial grain sales much like your farm. Only we pay royalties and levies on all pedigreed seed we plant... which is needed to provide land use quality control protocol; for future land use for pedigreed seed production. Therefore all our commercial production comes from seed we pay royalties on each year. Is this an Added cost or investment in the future!? Only time will tell!! Cheers

TOM

Upon reflection I believe your christmas greetings are getting sidetracked from the issue...

You believe in taxing your neighbours while you enjoy the spoils of providing , without any responsibility or liability, varieties that may or may not perform on your customers famers as well as your promotion....


Its interesting to see seed farms providing certified seeds as well as common seed in the same ad on kijiji...

How does that work????

getting out of paying the royalty to the breeder or slippage as they like to call it in public....in private they like to call farmers thieves for doing the same thing...buying seed from the neighbours ....and after one year on most farms its no longer pure seed...

[bucket]

Dear Bucket,
Our own farm income... the vast majority comes from commercial sales to commercial grain buyers... not seed sales. The assumption that there is some kind of golden profitable opportunity provided by some 'Seed Synergy' tax system...is simply in your imagination. Reality is our farm survives on commercial grain sales much like your farm. Only we pay royalties and levies on all pedigreed seed we plant... which is needed to provide land use for future pedigreed seed production. Therefore all our commercial production comes from seed we pay royalties on each year. Is this an Added cost or investment in the future!? Only time will tell!! Cheers

It's a seed tax like the carbon tax like the gst like any other tax....

Mandatory taxes force guys to find loopholes which doesn't help.....

It's the same old shit ....don't take....ask.

[bucket]

Tom4cwb

Here is a question....

If you provide a farmer with certified seed and it doesn't perform .....what happens?

If he has his input and farming records and it is a dud... do you....


1. Ignore the farmer
2. Give him another variety free gratis
3. Tell him what he did wrong
4. Acknowledge the variety underperformed.


Meanwhile in order to get rid of the production he pays a royalty on an underperforming variety that where he could have used common seed....

[Braveheart]

Another issue for me is the word "innovation" used in this discussion. Innovation is driven by farmers. How we use use and place fertilizer, use rotations, fungicide use and timing, etc all contribute to higher yields and better quality (weather dependent on both big time) than any innovation we've seen in varieties to date. So rewarding seed cos for innovation is a false reality.

[TOM4CWB]

Bucket;
We are responsible to provide live planting seed... that meets the varietal description... and Seeds Act purity for seed grade sold to the farmer, Then we are responsible to pay the seed company who owns the variety... who has a contact to pay the plant breeder and institution.. who registered that variety. Thx, Tom

Tom4cwb

Here is a question....

If you provide a farmer with certified seed and it doesn't perform .....what happens?

If he has his input and farming records and it is a dud... do you....


1. Ignore the farmer
2. Give him another variety free gratis
3. Tell him what he did wrong
4. Acknowledge the variety underperformed.

[bucket]

Another issue for me is the word "innovation" used in this discussion. Innovation is driven by farmers. How we use use and place fertilizer, use rotations, fungicide use and timing, etc all contribute to higher yields and better quality (weather dependent on both big time) than any innovation we've seen in varieties to date. So rewarding seed cos for innovation is a false reality.

I asked that question at my table as well with a chart to back it up....since fertilizer use and chemical has increased substantially in the last 20 years along with changing rotations doesn't some of the increase in production and quality come from the farmer side ...not the genetics side...

In other words if I had fertilized then like I do today ,,, pretty sure those old varieties would perform as well without a royalty ...BUT ...they have been deregistered or reclassified....

Thats an interesting way of ensuring older varieties don't stick around....

That wasn't addressed even though it was asked....

[bucket]

Bucket;
We are responsible to provide live planting seed... that meets the varietal description... and Seeds Act purity for seed grade sold to the farmer, Then we are responsible to pay the seed company who owns the variety... who has a contact to pay the plant breeder and institution.. who registered that variety. Thx, Tom

So you ignore your customers...thanks for the insight from a seed growers perspective...

One of the reasons that I think they should have only had one representative at the meeting...


The seed growers don't really give a **** about run of the mill farmers...

very telling

[TOM4CWB]

Bucket,

On older varieties productivity;
Testing of new vs older genetics has been the scientific base for performance of varieties for more than half a century. AC Barrie is the base line comparison used today. "AC Barrie derives from the cross Neepawa/ Columbus//BW90 made in 1984. Neepawa, Columbus, and BW90 were developed at the Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Research Centre, Winnipeg, MB." Therefore The standard used today in CWRS... is 34 years young... still a back check... that answers your varietal performance vs agronomic progression ... tested carefully decade after decade all across western Canada... coming from numerous local yearly valid comparisons. Better than previous genetics... is the cornerstone of our eligibility for new varietal registrations...seed system... in western Canada. Thx Tom

I asked that question at my table as well with a chart to back it up....since fertilizer use and chemical has increased substantially in the last 20 years along with changing rotations doesn't some of the increase in production and quality come from the farmer side ...not the genetics side...

In other words if I had fertilized then like I do today ,,, pretty sure those old varieties would perform as well without a royalty ...BUT ...they have been deregistered or reclassified....

Thats an interesting way of ensuring older varieties don't stick around....

That wasn't addressed even though it was asked....

[bucket]

Neepawa and columbus were reclassified to CNHR so barrie will move soon as well at a discount....


Brandon has also been on the chopping block....

[grassfarmer]

Playing the old shell game Tom - "wasn't us it was the Government" "can't do anything else to comply with UPOV'91" ignoring the realities that these things didn't just happen - they were lobbied for, they were part of someone's agenda and you are clearly on the side of them not us.
No doubt you've been in on the consultations since the outset just like you were on the Alberta land bills that took away farmers and landowner rights. A history of collusion.

[Guest]

I still would really sincerely like an answer to Walters question
why wasn't a seed grower held responsible for the triffid fiasco ?
why did they make it sound like it was a farmers fault ?
no one wanted the triffid flax and we paid for years for that ?
tom ? anyone ???

[farmaholic]

Playing the old shell game Tom - "wasn't us it was the Government" "can't do anything else to comply with UPOV'91" ignoring the realities that these things didn't just happen - they were lobbied for, they were part of someone's agenda and you are clearly on the side of them not us.
No doubt you've been in on the consultations since the outset just like you were on the Alberta land bills that took away farmers and landowner rights. A history of collusion.

Didn't you send the poor Sap a donation through the "Go Fund(****) Me" page when the railroad put a lien on his land after the "hero" let his name stand as representing the Claimants?