Nutrients in Fruits and Vegetables

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Its glyphosate... Haven't you gotten the memo?

I got that memo, has been beating me across the head with it for months now, but he is also advocating organic, and I don't see how that solves the bigger problem of soil that is being mined.

[Guest]

Austranada, can you explain this paradox. If the problem is mining the soil of nutrients, how is a system which places arbitrary restrictions on replacing nutrients (or at least makes it much more difficult and expensive) going to improve the situation?

Congratulations you appear to have attained liminality. Keep searching but go easy on all the assumptions

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Congratulations you appear to have attained liminality. Keep searching but go easy on all the assumptions

Well, thank you, I just learned something useful today. I had to look up the definition of liminality. But, sorry, it didn't just occur, I've been frustrated by conventional agricultures unwillingness to pay any premium for doing the right thing, and organics insistence on paying a premium only if you do all the wrong things.

I told you before, if you want to market my products with a system in between the two that rewards sustainable practices, produces healthy products(provably, and distinguishably so), and is based on science not emotion, I am all in.

[rumrocks]

I don't understand why the government would not do a random nutritional analysis of the fruits and vegetables from 5 or 6 locations and brands across Canada every 8 or 10 years. I'm sure they have employees who would jump at the chance to get out from behind their desks.
Consumers would then have some idea if they were meeting their required daily nutritional needs. From the little bit of research I've done, some supplied by others on this site, it seems that the numbers have dropped by 20 to 70 percent depending on the vitamin or mineral tested. Maybe that's what the government and producers are concerned about, if consumers knew the actual numbers they would just say to hell with fruit and vegetables, much to the horror of Health Canada.

[Guest]

http://www.ecofarmingdaily.com/soil-restoration-5-core-principles/

[workboots]

http://www.ecofarmingdaily.com/soil-restoration-5-core-principles/

Interesting read. I agree with a lot of this, but I don’t understand this bit I found near the end of the article. Maybe someone can explain.



“ It is widely recognized that only 10-15 percent of fertilizer P is taken up by crops and pastures in the year of application. If P fertilizer has been applied for the previous 10 years, there will be sufficient P for the next 100 years, irrespective of how much was in the soil beforehand. Rather than apply more P, it is more economical to activate soil microbes in order to access the P already there. “

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Interesting read. I agree with a lot of this, but I don’t understand this bit I found near the end of the article. Maybe someone can explain.



“ It is widely recognized that only 10-15 percent of fertilizer P is taken up by crops and pastures in the year of application. If P fertilizer has been applied for the previous 10 years, there will be sufficient P for the next 100 years, irrespective of how much was in the soil beforehand. Rather than apply more P, it is more economical to activate soil microbes in order to access the P already there. “

That is a very good ROI, somewhere between 1000% and 1500%, It appears as though it is not only the socialists who aren't good at math.

I tend to be very suspicious of anyone who thinks the laws of physics don't apply to them. Especially the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

[Guest]

Well, thank you, I just learned something useful today. I had to look up the definition of liminality. But, sorry, it didn't just occur, I've been frustrated by conventional agricultures unwillingness to pay any premium for doing the right thing, and organics insistence on paying a premium only if you do all the wrong things.

I told you before, if you want to market my products with a system in between the two that rewards sustainable practices, produces healthy products(provably, and distinguishably so), and is based on science not emotion, I am all in.

https://civileats.com/2017/07/10/should-regenerative-agriculture-get-its-own-label/

[farmaholic]

Well, thank you, I just learned something useful today. I had to look up the definition of liminality. But, sorry, it didn't just occur, I've been frustrated by conventional agricultures unwillingness to pay any premium for doing the right thing, and organics insistence on paying a premium only if you do all the wrong things.

I told you before, if you want to market my products with a system in between the two that rewards sustainable practices, produces healthy products(provably, and distinguishably so), and is based on science not emotion, I am all in.

I looked up the definition of liminality too, in layman's terms it's even akin to sitting on the fence. Not fully in one camp or the other, or in transition.

IMO, nothing wrong with being in that phase or place and maybe even staying there, you don't have as far to go in either direction you want to travel(and maybe back), being ABSOLUTELY in one camp or the other and seeing no benefits of the other side....well that space is reserved for ZEALOTS!

Nice word though, thanks Austranada.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

I looked up the definition of liminality too, in layman's terms it's even akin to sitting on the fence. Not fully in one camp or the other, or in transition.

IMO, nothing wrong with being in that phase or place and maybe even staying there, you don't have as far to go in either direction you want to travel(and maybe back), being ABSOLUTELY in one camp or the other and seeing no benefits of the other side....well that space is reserved for ZEALOTS!

Nice word though, thanks Austranada.

And isn't that a much more productive and useful state of mind to be in, than the idealogues on either extreme of most of these issues, for whom no amount of evidence or new information could ever change their minds? Agriville has many examples of such idealogues, on both sides of many issues, not the least of which is global warming.

[workboots]

That is a very good ROI, somewhere between 1000% and 1500%, It appears as though it is not only the socialists who aren't good at math.

I tend to be very suspicious of anyone who thinks the laws of physics don't apply to them. Especially the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

It just seems strange to suggest that the solution to phosphorous availability and crop needs for the next 100 years is simply use what is available.

A test of average soil P ppm available/not available, compared to the removal would show the validity of this claim.

Is this the best solution going in the organics world for covering the Phos needs?

Albertafarner5 makes a valid point.

Why don’t consumers pay a premium for crops grown with wastewater recovered phos products like the crystal green.

We might be facing global shortages of traditionally mined phos reserves in the next 20 years yet we let this precious resource run off into waterways and into our oceans. We should be looking for solutions to this problem now and incentivizing consumers and government to act. The producers will follow suit when the $ premium shows up.

And that goes for bringing a legume into the rotation as well. A farm could greatly reduce its synthetically derived nitrogen use with a legume in the rotation, but if doesn’t pay then what’s the incentive.

Right now the producer could reduce in crop pesticide use, bring in more sustainable fertilizer practices and replenish micronutrients to the soil and subsequently the grains. He could even run all his machinery with epa clean burners, but at the end of the day he doesn’t receive any premium for his product.

Instead we’re told to flog the chem, pound the fert, grow grow grow regardless of anything, pumping all the $$ back into the big agribusinesses Corp. The next phase is a drive toward data driven ag and precision ag that will perpetuate the forcing of farmers into larger economies of scale requirements and less privacy and independence. I doubt this means better quality food and more $ back to the farmers, well maybe a few farmer but not the network of primary producers as a whole.

How do we compete with growing regions like Argentina, and Russia if they are adopting techs and innovating as fast as we are and the costs to produce are less.

[Guest]

And isn't that a much more productive and useful state of mind to be in, than the idealogues on either extreme of most of these issues, for whom no amount of evidence or new information could ever change their minds? Agriville has many examples of such idealogues, on both sides of many issues, not the least of which is global warming.

If organic or regenerative farming (Gabe Brown for example) is one extreme do you have the courage to describe what's wrong with the other extreme (mainstream ag). Your secateurs appear to be mysteriously sharp when cutting down the former then just as amazingly get dull when defending the latter. It really isn't productive to be a subjective fence sitter.

[farmaholic]

If organic or regenerative farming (Gabe Brown for example) is one extreme do you have the courage to describe what's wrong with the other extreme (mainstream ag). Your secateurs appear to be mysteriously sharp when cutting down the former then just as amazingly get dull when defending the latter. It really isn't productive to be a subjective fence sitter.

Pros and cons Austranada, pros and cons of each.

How about focusing on the pros of each for a change, instead of slagging each method.

This is getting old!

[Guest]

Pros and cons Austranada, pros and cons of each.

How about focusing on the pros of each for a change, instead of slagging each method.

This is getting old!

I hear you. Allow me to rephrase the question by simply substituting the word "wrong" with "right". This may elicit a more interesting response

[farmaholic]

I hear you. Allow me to rephrase the question by simply substituting the word "wrong" with "right". This may elicit a more interesting response

It's all been discussed ad nauseam.