Sustainable production

[Hopalong]

Had a recent conversation with a direct seeding pioneer.
He suggests that present grain growing system is not sustainable.
That we consider forage in rotation to maintain soil organic matter.
My response was to say that present system is more profitable than the forage and livestock inclusive one that we used to follow in past and that operating at a profit is first consideration.
Guess we each have to decide individually how far to go.

[tmyrfield]

Had a recent conversation with a direct seeding pioneer.
He suggests that present grain growing system is not sustainable.
That we consider forage in rotation to maintain soil organic matter.
My response was to say that present system is more profitable than the forage and livestock inclusive one that we used to follow in past and that operating at a profit is first consideration.
Guess we each have to decide individually how far to go.

don't you just love being told by the woke people how to run your life? personally I'm am getting sick and tired of it.

I also wonder what the difference is in removing nutrients from an ecosystem by cereals and oilseeds vs meat and/or poultry and dairy products. I suggest that removal of nutrients from poorer soiled ecosystems typically associated with pastures is more damaging than growing crops and replacing nutrients with artificial fertilizers on heavier fertile soils.Proper management of both types of food production is essential and I believe each and every farmer strives to improve their most important resource...the land.

I think the guys advocating for more forage acres are hoping for a huge increase in forage production to lower the price of their main input, feedstock. I may be wrong.

[farmaholic]

How is growing forage then cutting and baling and removing all the crop 3-4(or less) inches above the ground going to build organic matter? Wouldn't more organic matter be returned to the soil in an annual cropping system where all the chaff and straw get returned to the surface?

Unless you're talking about forage as pasture and grazing livestock.1

If nutrients that are removed by the harvested seed are replaced, now can that be worse than forage?

I have neighbors who ****ed up their pastures so bad that they could never return to the soil what residue from an annual crop would.

Grassfarmer
Grassfarmer
Grassfarmer....

[burnt]

Obviously, different geographic regions will have differing practices, but there are some very interesting developments here in southern Ontario with regard to soil-building practices.

Namely, the increasing use of cover crops before, during and after a crop is raised.

The goal is to increase organic matter and thus increase the availability of nutrients and also water retention.

Organic matter comes not only from what grows above the ground, but the root mass contributes a big percentage as well.

The easiest one is planting a cover crop after winter wheat, with a wide growing window following harvest. I have planted rye after soys and found it to be very worthwhile in terms of volume. Some will kill it off in the fall while others wait until spring.

There are some very elaborate mixes being used with up to 8, sometimes more, species being planted. Each species contributes its own microbial soil benefit.

One thing that surprised me was that the data shows that the soil temperature is actually higher when a living cover crop is present in the spring, a result of the microbial activity in the soil.

Just last week I followed a piece of equipment loaded on a transport - a "crop crimper" for killing off cover crops in the spring.

It looked like a land roller with 4" spiral vanes/blades sticking out from the surface of the roller on about 6" or 8" centers. Those vanes flatten and crimp the cover crop, causing it dry out rapidly after one pass. The crop is no-tilled directly into that aftermath.

The guys that have been doing it a while are not quitting.

So yes, there is a movement toward recognizing soil science and it shows some promise.

It naturally follows, though, that there is a downside that will need to be addressed, such as the cover crop hosting some plant diseases. It's never easy.

What makes this discussion interesting is that the mainstream agriculture guys are starting to use some of the language that was once relegated to the organic camp. SAY IT ISN'T SO!!

Such as "Feed the microbes, and the microbes feed the plants".

What is also interesting is that it is the biggest operations that are showing the most adverse effects on the soil, (compaction, erosion) with little or no remedial actions being practiced. Unless one calls more fertilizer and more tillage remedial...

[farmaholic]

Good post burnt.
I think this could be a good thread if we can treat each other's opinions and experiences with respect.

Burnt, one of the drawbacks in Western Canada is a relatively short season to get something going after harvest. Sometimes it's all farms can do to get the crop off before the farming "season" ends.

I look forward to other people's posts with their experiences and opinions.

[GDR]

Had a recent conversation with a direct seeding pioneer.
He suggests that present grain growing system is not sustainable.
That we consider forage in rotation to maintain soil organic matter.
My response was to say that present system is more profitable than the forage and livestock inclusive one that we used to follow in past and that operating at a profit is first consideration.
Guess we each have to decide individually how far to go.

I apreciate different areas have different environmental / market and land quality differences and I have no issue with conventional modern grain farming. However we are mixed farming, the land that gets rotated over the years through forage pasture and grain is by far the most profitable acres on the farm. We will see how the anti meat campaign influences ag going forward.

As for individual profitability export hay growers have returns much higher than annual crops in our area, although more risk to quantity and quality than grain. Last couple years even cow feed has been better due to drought.

Sustainability has a different meaning to lots of people. Some of the technology relating to nitrogen fixation and perenial cereals and other advancements are going to change things going forward.

[jimmy]

intercropping should speed up maturity then a fall rye or wheat should keep the soil alive.

[Hopalong]

Person on other end of my conversation did suggest pasture but forage is still required for winter feed.
Thought his accomplishments in direct seeding and zero till would have been enough but he says we need to go further.

[Braveheart]

We have dabbled just a little with cover crops. We used a simple approach of using bin run barley seed drilled into barley stubble. We got an excellent stand of lush growth. We used it as late pasture for cow/calf pairs. You could watch pounds come on those calves. It was tremendous.

The upshot on the soil was an improvement in organic matter in just the one season. If we could improve the system (planting, timing, etc) and maybe add some pulses as well, I know it would help our water storage in the soil as well.

Another option we tried, and it worked well, was intercropping fall rye with barley. The crop was silaged and the rye then grazed in fall, again in spring, then rye was taken to harvest. The green rye in the silage helped ensiling and bumped up the protein by about 1.5%.

BTW, any definition of sustainable farming is that first and foremost the farmer must be profitable, no matter the system. That's true sustainability.

[bucket]

We have dabbled just a little with cover crops. We used a simple approach of using bin run barley seed drilled into barley stubble. We got an excellent stand of lush growth. We used it as late pasture for cow/calf pairs. You could watch pounds come on those calves. It was tremendous.

The upshot on the soil was an improvement in organic matter in just the one season. If we could improve the system (planting, timing, etc) and maybe add some pulses as well, I know it would help our water storage in the soil as well.

Another option we tried, and it worked well, was intercropping fall rye with barley. The crop was silaged and the rye then grazed in fall, again in spring, then rye was taken to harvest. The green rye in the silage helped ensiling and bumped up the protein by about 1.5%.

BTW, any definition of sustainable farming is that first and foremost the farmer must be profitable, no matter the system. That's true sustainability.

You could have just used a John deere combine instead of seeding bin run.....lol....

[farmaholic]

After harvest there are times that in the Ghetto you couldn't get something to germinate if you wanted(Even in spring sometimes, LOL). When there are cracks in the low spots wide and deep nothing will germ and you would need a disc type seeder otherwise you would have football sized lumps.

Things have improved here dramatically since we started continuous cropping with a diverse crop rotation... but I guess things are never so good that they couldn't be better!

Edit in, not tdying to be adversarial and negative, just pointing out some challenges of farming in the Ghetto.

[tubs]

I have been thinking of covercrops also bbut have kind of the same problem as farmaholic. But I think we could use covers after a hailstorm. Also green matter is important for soil life I have quit spraying pre and preharvest in the fall but not convinced yet some weeds are coming back like thistle and we have to keep that manageable. Interesting topic'.

[Braveheart]

After harvest there are times that in the Ghetto you couldn't get something to germinate if you wanted(Even in spring sometimes, LOL). When there are cracks in the low spots wide and deep nothing will germ and you would need a disc type seeder otherwise you would have football sized lumps.

Things have improved here dramatically since we started continuous cropping with a diverse crop rotation... but I guess things are never so good that they couldn't be better!

The beauty is, too dry don't do cover crop. If conditions permit go ahead.

I haven't come close to figuring it out. Like usual, the more I learn the less I know.

[Guest]

our land has never been in better shape than it is now since we started min/zero till 25 years ago , but I agree always room for improvement .
I'm not comfortable at all with the money we are spending on inputs and the risk we are incurring .
A big eye opener for us always is when we take an alfalfa field out of production . those fields will outyield all others for 5-6 years , especially when we are on the wet side (99%) of the time

[grassfarmer]

How is growing forage then cutting and baling and removing all the crop 3-4(or less) inches above the ground going to build organic matter? Wouldn't more organic matter be returned to the soil in an annual cropping system where all the chaff and straw get returned to the surface?

Unless you're talking about forage as pasture and grazing livestock.1

If nutrients that are removed by the harvested seed are replaced, now can that be worse than forage?

I have neighbors who ****ed up their pastures so bad that they could never return to the soil what residue from an annual crop would.

Grassfarmer
Grassfarmer
Grassfarmer....

A large factor in building soil OM comes from root die off after a plant is cut or killed. Perennial crops like alfalfa or an alfalfa/grass mix have way more roots that a cereal crop. It's still mining OM though whether you are removing a hay crop or a grain crop. The better the pasture (and it's management) the better you can build OM - poor pasture is not a good or sustainable system for sure.
You talk about replacing nutrients - that's fine and well but you're not adding OM, not directly anyway by adding nutrients assuming you are talking chemical N,P+K. I agree with the comments on cover crops - great after a hail event, doubtful in many areas if you think only in terms of it as a second crop grown after the first - lack of moisture, lack of time is often against you. I think the real advances will come through intercropping but there is still so much to learn.
I'm interested in things like hairy vetch seeded at the same time as a greenfeed crop or corn - slow to establish so not outcompeting the "main" crop, yet there and growing late season to contribute and extend the season where something is growing. Another that intrigues me is growing sweet clover under a crop, again probably slower to establish, then have it grow on in the fall after harvest and given that it's main activity in year one is fixing N in it's roots it could be accumulating all the N you need for the next crop. As long as it didn't hinder harvest of the main crop then you could spray it out.
The sprays are an issue though - they are all very tough on the soil micro-biology and kill the critters you need to convert the crop residue into stable OM. That's a tough one to overcome.