Sustainable production

[Braveheart]

After harvest there are times that in the Ghetto you couldn't get something to germinate if you wanted(Even in spring sometimes, LOL). When there are cracks in the low spots wide and deep nothing will germ and you would need a disc type seeder otherwise you would have football sized lumps.

Things have improved here dramatically since we started continuous cropping with a diverse crop rotation... but I guess things are never so good that they couldn't be better!

The beauty is, too dry don't do cover crop. If conditions permit go ahead.

I haven't come close to figuring it out. Like usual, the more I learn the less I know.

[Guest]

our land has never been in better shape than it is now since we started min/zero till 25 years ago , but I agree always room for improvement .
I'm not comfortable at all with the money we are spending on inputs and the risk we are incurring .
A big eye opener for us always is when we take an alfalfa field out of production . those fields will outyield all others for 5-6 years , especially when we are on the wet side (99%) of the time

[grassfarmer]

How is growing forage then cutting and baling and removing all the crop 3-4(or less) inches above the ground going to build organic matter? Wouldn't more organic matter be returned to the soil in an annual cropping system where all the chaff and straw get returned to the surface?

Unless you're talking about forage as pasture and grazing livestock.1

If nutrients that are removed by the harvested seed are replaced, now can that be worse than forage?

I have neighbors who ****ed up their pastures so bad that they could never return to the soil what residue from an annual crop would.

Grassfarmer
Grassfarmer
Grassfarmer....

A large factor in building soil OM comes from root die off after a plant is cut or killed. Perennial crops like alfalfa or an alfalfa/grass mix have way more roots that a cereal crop. It's still mining OM though whether you are removing a hay crop or a grain crop. The better the pasture (and it's management) the better you can build OM - poor pasture is not a good or sustainable system for sure.
You talk about replacing nutrients - that's fine and well but you're not adding OM, not directly anyway by adding nutrients assuming you are talking chemical N,P+K. I agree with the comments on cover crops - great after a hail event, doubtful in many areas if you think only in terms of it as a second crop grown after the first - lack of moisture, lack of time is often against you. I think the real advances will come through intercropping but there is still so much to learn.
I'm interested in things like hairy vetch seeded at the same time as a greenfeed crop or corn - slow to establish so not outcompeting the "main" crop, yet there and growing late season to contribute and extend the season where something is growing. Another that intrigues me is growing sweet clover under a crop, again probably slower to establish, then have it grow on in the fall after harvest and given that it's main activity in year one is fixing N in it's roots it could be accumulating all the N you need for the next crop. As long as it didn't hinder harvest of the main crop then you could spray it out.
The sprays are an issue though - they are all very tough on the soil micro-biology and kill the critters you need to convert the crop residue into stable OM. That's a tough one to overcome.

[Guest]

lots of sweet grown here that way but oftentimes it takes over the primary crop and makes harvest a bitch . I have saw it grow above canola the first year , no doubt worse here because of our wet problem most of the time

[grassfarmer]

lots of sweet grown here that way but oftentimes it takes over the primary crop and makes harvest a bitch . I have saw it grow above canola the first year , no doubt worse here because of our wet problem most of the time

I've grown hairy vetch as an under crop but not the sweet clover. Twice seeded sweetclover on it's own - first time it produced 8 ton/acre of silage by mid July, the second it was still a poor stand by August. That's why I'm interested in the concept versus actually doing it - far from having it figured out lol!

[jimmy]

Heavy harrow with Valmar does a decent job with fall seeding, quick and gets some dirt around the seeds and when rain comes it grows.

[farmaholic]

Intercropping brings a whole new set of challenges with weed control, crop maturity, separating harvested grain. There are some herbicide group overlaps in different crops but the options are definitely limited and in some intercropping fields non-existent. By the time all those things that need to be done intercropping are done and paid for, as Braveheart stated, there has to be a net gain for the producer.

Then row cropping of two crops in the same field, yikes.

In this area it us hard to justify trying to get a cover crop established after harvest. Between time left in the growing season, time to do it, available moisture, equipment requirements and costs(seed,fuel,wear & tear,etc)....it makes it a hard practice to justify.

The only drawbacks I see in a spring attempt to establish a nitrogen fixing cover/companion crop would be, establishment, competition for limited moisture resources(sometimes sometimes not), weed control. If the cover/companion crop has conditions after harvest to create alot of biomass what is the procedure to deal with it and will it affect seeding the following spring?

I also agree with Braveheart's comment about moisture retention(if there isn't a lack of moisture to start with). And there better be adequate moisture available without causing establishment and/or yeild loss in the following crop. Besides retention I believe it dramatically helps with infiltration.

I also truly believe this system won't work in areas that are typically dry or classified semi-arid, but were there is an abundance of moisture...look out.

Another issue could be the propagation and support of disease development, unless someone one wants to make the claim a healthy soil microflora can overcome that possibility and risk.

[WiltonRanch]

On what I’d consider our shitty land which is hilly, heavy clay, little topsoil, and a bit of solonetzic; we have seen a remarkable improvement in productivity from switching to zero tillage and feeding cattle on the poorest spots. Something about cow poop increasing not only fertility but also microbial activity. I’m not a big fertilizer user as are most other guys that farm these hills because of lack of yield potential. That said, I never put any less on than I do but my yields have at least stabilized in poor years and increased in better years. My next experiment is to do an summer grazing on seeded annuals. My first attempt will be whatever seed I have in the bin fertilized with a balanced nutrient package. There is all these grazing blends you can buy but I have an issue spending $50 an acre on brassicas and what not. I intend to seed canola the following year and want a break in the rotation. Cows if managed right will return 80 to 90% of what they eat back to the ground. So if you do a grazing on crop land like this you are hopefully in a closed nutrient loop and building by adding fertilizer on top of added microbial activity.

[grassfarmer]

Farma, how much different would your precipitation be to Gabe Browns at Bismark ND? He seems to have developed a very elaborate system that works to grow all kinds of crops.
I think there will be considerable reduction in disease risk if you have healthy soil microflora.
At the end of the day I don't see cover crops/intercropping etc being an ideal bolt-on to a straight grain operation devoid of livestock. I think you need the livestock to benefit from the cover crops etc - but then again I believe land management on the prairies can't be sustainable without livestock anyway.

To Wilton Ranch's comment about cover crop seed cost - I'm with you on that - it's just the parasites moving in on the new system the same as they already do on conventional systems. It's already turned a lot of early adopters that I know off cover crops.

[farmaholic]

At the end of the day I don't see cover crops/intercropping etc being an ideal bolt-on to a straight grain operation devoid of livestock. I think you need the livestock to benefit from the cover crops etc -

I think you right about the addition of livestock to get full benefits.

There could be some snake oil biologicals coming for grain farmers to help create synergies between the soil and the parts of the crops we normally don't see, the roots below the soil surface.

[jimmy]

Covercrop seed couldn’t you let it go to maturity and harvest some? Martin Entz from manitoba sure swears by it for organic producers. They are getting same yields as conventional only every other year.

[grassfarmer]

If it's a diverse seed mix as they recommend presumably plant maturity would be varied - make for tricky harvesting.