Electricity again

[malleefarmer]

Yesterday

ANOTHER DAY OF GREEN ELECTRICITY MADNESS : STATES WITH ‘’LOW COST SOLAR & WIND’’ PAYING 13020% MORE FOR ELECTRICITY

Wholesale Electricity prices per Mwh at 4.15pm today;

Queensland : $83.60
NSW : $98.00
SA (the renewables paradise) : $13,038.92
Victoriastan : $13,049.84

And Jackie & Annastacia in Qld, want to follow Dan & Lily in Victoria, who are trying to copy Jay’s failed experiment in South Australia.

NOTE : On the 1st March 2015 (before we started up blowing up coal fired power stations and trying to replace them with intermittent, weather dependent renewables) average prices for the day were;

Queensland : $48.92
NSW : $28.01
SA : $24.24
Victoria : $24.33

[malleefarmer]

PS 42c yesterday and again today peak power is 4pm to 7 pm i beleive.

I know it sounds irish but its why i want solar and battery to get power bill back to naff all.

SA demand verus generation/grid power coming in a 100 mwh shortage hence we had to "buy" extra power in

[Hamloc]

Mallee I certainly sympathize with your situation. Our Alberta NDP government wants 30% of our power generation capacity to be renewables by 2030. At present 8.9% of our generation capacity is wind. At 7:41 this morning wind was producing 1.07% of the electricity Alberta was consuming, so wind was running at a whopping 8% efficiency, fml. Fyi it was -31 with a -38 windchill. My opinion on renewables hasn't changed. No problem with nuclear and hydro.

[chuckChuck]

Mallee I remember seeing a report on why Australian electricity prices are high and renewables was only one factor in the equation.

Has not a lot of Australia's problems stemmed from de- regulation and privatization of generation and the grid?

Definitely consider solar as an option. Australia has a lot of sun and solar resources.

I live in sunny Saskatchewan and my 25kw grid tied system has produced twice as much electricity as I used in February. During mid day on a sunny day it is putting out over 90% of its rated capacity.

Most of my peak usage is in August and September when we run numerous aeration fans. On average my system is projected to cover my average annual usage.

In the long term my system is projected to lock in electricity prices well below what i am going to pay Saskpower.

Every situation and jurisdiction is going to be different, but don't listen to the negative naysayers on this site who are very anti-renewable energy. Yes we still need fossil fuels, but do your home work and research and figure out if it will work for you on your farm using your own numbers and situation.

[chuckChuck]

Mallee I certainly sympathize with your situation. Our Alberta NDP government wants 30% of our power generation capacity to be renewables by 2030. At present 8.9% of our generation capacity is wind. At 7:41 this morning wind was producing 1.07% of the electricity Alberta was consuming, so wind was running at a whopping 8% efficiency, fml. Fyi it was -31 with a -38 windchill. My opinion on renewables hasn't changed. No problem with nuclear and hydro.

Scott Moe and Saskpower are even more ambitious. They are planning on 50% percent renewables by 2030.

In order to understand how viable renewables are or are not, you need to look at the annual data for the whole system of generation.

Understanding how much renewable electricity we can install and use requires more knowledge, training and expertise than average farmers have. Utilities will have numerous specialist and expert engineers and system analysts to figure this out.

But don't let that stop you from expressing your "opinions".

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Scott Moe and Saskpower are even more ambitious. They are planning on 50% percent renewables by 2030.

In order to understand how viable renewables are or are not, you need to look at the annual data for the whole system of generation.

Understanding how much renewable electricity we can install and use requires more knowledge, training and expertise than average farmers have. Utilities will have numerous specialist and expert engineers and system analysts to figure this out.

But don't let that stop you from expressing your "opinions".

And of course, you know exactly what qualifications us average farmers possess? I know of at least three engineers on this site who regularly factually destroy your fanciful wishful thinking on this issue.

The numerous specialists and expert engineers you refer to have very successfully orchestrated the power outages and skyrocketing prices that Mallee is plagued with. And are repeating the same mistakes all over the world, they are apparently so smart that they have no need to learn from others mistakes, in fact, they don't even bother to learn from their own.

My sympathies are with you Mallee. Even when sanity eventually prevails in Australia(and it will, that which can't go on forever, won't), it could take decades to rectify the damage done.

[chuckChuck]

So how many engineers on this site have worked on designing electrical grids and integrating multiple sources of generation into the electrical system? How many have experience with renewable forms at a grid scale? Probably zero.

So I am not sure why petroleum engineers for example, would have any expertise on designing and building electrical grid systems. I may be wrong and they may have the tools and the education to figure a lot of things out, but unless you are actively working in the industry with the facts at hand, how the hell would you know what is going on?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

So how many engineers on this site have worked on designing electrical grids and integrating multiple sources of generation into the electrical system? How many have experience with renewable forms and a grid scale? Probably zero.

So I am not sure why petroleum engineers for example, would have any expertise on designing and building electrical grid systems. I may be wrong and they may have the tools and the education to figure a lot of things out, but unless you are actively working in the industry with the facts at hand, how the hell would you know what is going on?

I know you believe these things don't apply in your world, but there are these suggestions called the laws of physics, and mathematics, which have not yet been suspended by wishful thinking. They apply equally regardless of industry. Engineering is one of the few fields where the goal is to teach how to learn, and apply fundamental principles, and problem solve. These skills then apply to whatever field one chooses to apply them.

[chuckChuck]

I know you believe these things don't apply in your world, but there are these suggestions called the laws of physics, and mathematics, which have not yet been suspended by wishful thinking. They apply equally regardless of industry. Engineering is one of the few fields where the goal is to teach how to learn, and apply fundamental principles, and problem solve. These skills then apply to whatever field one chooses to apply them.

True. But if you don't have the numbers and data from a electrical utility the math can't be done.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

True. But if you don't have the numbers and data from a electrical utility the math can't be done.

In this case, we don't even need all the numbers. We can work backwards from the resulting real world numbers that Mallee has been posting on real world costs that real world consumers are paying. Those are the ones that matter, and all of the models and projections that you love to post never equate to the real world results that consumers end up with. So we need to ask ourselves, are the models/projections wrong, or is the real world wrong? This applies equally to another field which you are passionate about.

Perhaps Mallee just needs new glasses, and has the decimal in the wrong place.

[chuckChuck]

Sounds simple enough but the reality is very different. Engineers are engineers so you claim. Great.

If and when you need a surgeon, do you want the surgeon who specializes in heart surgery or knee replacements to do your bypass?

They're both doctors and both surgeons, but their experience and specialist training are very different.

You and I can debate this till the cows come home. It's mostly a waste of time.

I now have a little bit of experience with solar pv on my real world farm. It works! Even in the middle of February. Free fuel! Lower cost electricity for our farm! What is wrong with that?

Many farmers and individuals have already installed solar pv and many more are interested.

I will leave it up to you to analyse and dissect (speculate) on Alberta's, Saskatchewan's, the USA's and Australia's electrical systems and how renewables fit into each system.

But I think I already know what your conclusions are.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Sounds simple enough but the reality is very different. Engineers are engineers so you claim. Great.

If and when you need a surgeon, do you want the surgeon who specializes in heart surgery or knee replacements to do your bypass?

They're both doctors and both surgeons, but their experience and specialist training are very different.

You and I can debate this till the cows come home. It's mostly a waste of time.

I now have a little bit of experience with solar pv on my real world farm. It works! Even in the middle of February. Free fuel! Lower cost electricity for our farm! What is wrong with that?

Many farmers and individuals have already installed solar pv and many more are interested.

I will leave it up to you to analyse and dissect (speculate) on Alberta's, Saskatchewan's, the USA's and Australia's electrical systems and how renewables fit into each system.

But I think I already know what your conclusions are.

If only it were only a waste of time it would be tolerable, but instead it is also a waste of resources, and scarce capital. Such as the debt to GDP you are so concerned about. So we are now adding debt to produce something that in the end subtracts from our GDP, while consuming rare non renewable resources, as well as land in the process.

I only need you to provide one fact for me to come to a different conclusion. Please provide an example of somewhere in the world where the cost of grid electricity has gone down (relatively speaking) due to installing renewable energy. I am very flexible in my conclusions, as new facts become available.

So, after 3? months you have already achieved free fuel? All of your capital costs are covered, all of the maintenance and upgrades? That is impressive.

[chuckChuck]

A farmer should understand that when you buy farmland you don't pay for it in the first year. Same as solar PV. I won't be getting a bill for sunlight. Sunlight powers your farm and mine and my solar PV. Both require capital investment, but the solar energy source is free.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

A farmer should understand that when you buy farmland you don't pay for it in the first year. Same as solar PV. I won't be getting a bill for sunlight. Sunlight powers your farm and mine and my solar PV. Both require capital investment, but the solar energy source is free.

Yes, the solar energy for my crops, and grass and hay is free also. But because I am capable of the most basic of math skills, I don't jump to the conclusion that my COP is therefore 0 before I have even made the first mortgage payment.

It is comments such as your free fuel comment that costs your side so much credibility, amongst those who apply common sense.

[Hamloc]

Chuck2 here is a very simple question. It is 12:28 pm here in Alberta. It is a sunny but cold day. I just looked at the AESO supply and demand report. There is a 15 MW solar farm at Brooks Alberta. Right now it is producing 0 MW. Why is that? You brag up solar, you talk about all these brilliant engineers and how a simple farmer like myself can't be right. Wouldn't today be a perfect day for winter production of solar energy? Where is our electricity going to come from on a day like today in the future when wind and solar are not producing?