Electricity again

[chuckChuck]

From Checking "In short order, my net metering solar credits would be gone with overnight aeration."

My solar system is sized to cover my average annual usage which includes aeration fan use. if you have larger annual usage, you can size your grid tied solar system up to 100kw I believe, which should produce around 130,000 kwh in Southern Saskatchewan.

[chuckChuck]

While we keep arguing about the advantages and disadvantages and economics of renewables, perhaps the better question should be why do we need alternatives at all? 15 or 20 years ago when much of this really got started, we were realistically looking at peak oil and gas, and much of it was coming from very undesirable areas of the world, and we genuinely needed alternatives to finite fossil fuels. Jump ahead to 2019, and there is so much natural gas especially in north America now that it is being flared as worthless. New technology has pushed peak oil and gas ahead by decades, if not centuries, while making it more affordable too.

So, unless you really believe that the net environmental footprint of fossil fuels is that much worse than renewables(debatable), there is no argument to be made in support of renewables now. Or, if you are a member of the minority anti-science group who still believes that increasing plant food will be apocalypitcal.

Every government in Canada has a plan of some sorts to reduce carbon emissions from fossil fuels. Renewable electricity production is one way to reduce carbon emissions.

Just for fun lets see your math showing the carbon emissions for wind, solar, and hydro versus coal and natural gas.

[chuckChuck]

It's a mistake to equate "negative, critical and cynical" with critical analysis; looking for improved positive advances and identifying limitations in someone else's arguments and the popular movement in the news thatwill be identified as a National Emergency.

Just as we should not directly pay any serious attention to the "Earth Ranger" movement restricted to youngsters who will one day take over. Yes: Contemplate what the outcome will be; and understand the influence of their their parents, teachers and the info available from the children's sources. But if children have the answers to the world problems; then the world has been run wrong from the beginning.

Or is it really appropriate to ignore the fact that the overabundance of oxygen sucking; CO2 producing critters on the face of the earth will probably totally overwhelm the earth's capability to sustain even the current occupants....let alone the inevitable doubling that will inevitably happen until some "natural or unnatural" events bring a readjustment. Same with the taboo subject of nuclear power.

That is not necessarily being negative, critical or cynical. It could be close to the truth.


Back to electrical energy : From my recent interview with a couple Sask power "decision makers" my firmly held belief of the importance of utilizing substantial resources now labelled as near worthless waste has indeed been considered as a part of our electrical needs. This topic was brought into the conversation.

Indeed flare gas is recognized as what should be considered an important resource. There is a recognition of the energy source value of these hydrocarbon compounds; what this waste resource could produce as electrical energy and waste heat; and their admitted strong points. However; flare gas attributes are diminished by the fact that the costs of harnessing what is there today; are subject to the continually declining supply which is a fact of life in our oil fields. Otherwise known as flush production in initial months; to be followed by being lucky to get that much more over the rest of the lifetime of the oil field.

Otherwise known as a good idea that is a "non-starter" based on economics. And that I am told.. is now understood; and through policy decisions; we have to look for other solutions like making a deal for hydro power from another province or country. Or intermittent wind and solar production; or as I suggest maybe even North Dakota which does have gas plant expansions in mind.

Its will literally cost billions.....and we had better get it right the first time. Remember Venezuala once showed a lot of promise, and won't recover from their past as quickly as they declined.

Saskatchewan is building the 350Mw gas power Chinook power station near Swift Current.

https://www.saskpower.com/our-power-future/infrastructure-projects/construction-projects/current-projects/chinook-power-station

They are also seriously considering converting some older coal fired systems over to gas.

Comparing Canada to any latin american country disregards the history of politics and underdevelopment in the region.

Canada has a much more diversified economy and much better institutions than Venezuela.

[Hamloc]

[QUOTE=grassfarmer;403886]

The fact that you (or I) don't understand what the reports show - why there are coal and gas powered generation plants showing zero output the same as the solar plant at Brooks yet you choose to take that as proof that solar generation is not a reliable source of power. By your logic that would prove that neither coal not solar are viable sources of power.

With a little googling I went on the Transalta site, the company which operates the Sundance coal units. "Mothballing temporarily a combination of Sundance units in 2018 and 2019 to ensure that two Sundance units can operate at high capacity utilization a through the period to 2020." Same website said that all the units will be converted to natural gas by I believe 2024. I haven't looked up why the other plant was not producing but I assume a similar reason. So I am curious how do you idle a solar farm on a sunny day?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Every government in Canada has a plan of some sorts to reduce carbon emissions from fossil fuels. Renewable electricity production is one way to reduce carbon emissions.

Just for fun lets see your math showing the carbon emissions for wind, solar, and hydro versus coal and natural gas.

Coal still has a large advantage over natural gas, and natural gas still has an advantage over the full life cycle of wind and solar, which have an advantage over hydro, when it comes to their ability to release life giving CO2. According to Germany's example, the net result of massively adding wind and solar has been to increase their CO2 emmissions, so the renewables really can't that much worse than the reliables in their capacity to increase plant food, when installed in large enough quantities as they have done.

But, I'm not sure how the positive environmental benefits is relevant to my original question though, since I was referring to the negative environmental footprints, things like pollution of air water or soil, land use, resources consumed ( and the sustainability of those resources), net effect of grid and other generation loss of efficiencies, effect on wildlife etc.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Comparing Canada to any latin american country disregards the history of politics and underdevelopment in the region.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Upon further consideration, I think we were unfair to be blaming the experts and engineers for the expensive fiasco that has been renewable energy everywhere it has been attempted so far( Mallee's sad tale as an excellent example).

The experts and engineers were given the unenviable impossible job of enacting the lunatic policies of completely uneducated non-expert, non-engineer ignorant, scientifically illiterate politicians. And, as Oneoff said, put enough horsepower behind anything and it can fly. In this case, that horsepower is the hard earned dollars of consumers and business people like Mallee who are now paying for the folly of irresponsible politicians. The engineers and experts are just following orders, and trying to make the best of a bad situation.

No different than how we blame Cummins or Detroit etc. for the disaster that is emissions controls on modern diesels. When the reality is that they were mandated impossible deadlines and unreasonable standards, and the ability to pass those costs on to the end user, with the result that the consumer pays the price by being the guniea pig while the engineers work feverously to put out the fires caused by the original deadlines.

[chuckChuck]

[QUOTE=Hamloc;403894]

With a little googling I went on the Transalta site, the company which operates the Sundance coal units. "Mothballing temporarily a combination of Sundance units in 2018 and 2019 to ensure that two Sundance units can operate at high capacity utilization a through the period to 2020." Same website said that all the units will be converted to natural gas by I believe 2024. I haven't looked up why the other plant was not producing but I assume a similar reason. So I am curious how do you idle a solar farm on a sunny day?

By shutting the switch off.

When the power goes or power to inverters is cut the inverters stop working and thus no electricity is put into the grid. Also happens when there is an unplanned power outage to protect linemen from multiple sources of electricity going into the grid.

[chuckChuck]

Upon further consideration, I think we were unfair to be blaming the experts and engineers for the expensive fiasco that has been renewable energy everywhere it has been attempted so far( Mallee's sad tale as an excellent example).

The experts and engineers were given the unenviable impossible job of enacting the lunatic policies of completely uneducated non-expert, non-engineer ignorant, scientifically illiterate politicians. And, as Oneoff said, put enough horsepower behind anything and it can fly. In this case, that horsepower is the hard earned dollars of consumers and business people like Mallee who are not paying for the folly of irresponsible politicians. The engineers and experts are just following orders, and trying to make the best of a bad situation.

No different than how we blame Cummins or Detroit etc. for the disaster that is emissions controls on modern diesels. When the reality is that they were mandated impossible deadlines and unreasonable standards, and the ability to pass those costs on to the end user, with the result that the consumer pays the price by being the guniea pig while the engineers work feverously to put out the fires caused by the original deadlines.

You are making sweeping generalizations about renewable energy everywhere. Quite the claim, when many countries in Europe and elsewhere have large amounts of renewable energy already on stream including the state of North Dakota. All a failure? LOL

Have you studied the grids in all the countries in the world that use significant amounts of renewable energy? I doubt it. As usual you have little to back up your mostly political rhetoric.

You are ignoring the impact privatization and deregulation had on Australia's power system. How very convenient to place all the blame on renewables.

We are in the early stages of transitioning away from fossil energy and building more renewable capacity and exploring other forms of renewable energy. And you have already decided its a failure?

30 years ago what kind of telephone were you using and did you use the internet much for banking?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

You are making sweeping generalizations about renewable energy everywhere. Quite the claim, when many countries in Europe and elsewhere have large amounts of renewable energy already on stream including the state of North Dakota. All a failure? LOL

Have you studied the grids in all the countries in the world that use significant amounts of renewable energy? I doubt it. As usual you have little to back up your mostly political rhetoric.

You are ignoring the impact privatization and deregulation had on Australia's power system. How very convenient to place all the blame on renewables.

We are in the early stages of transitioning away from fossil energy and building more renewable capacity and exploring other forms of renewable energy. And you have already decided its a failure?

30 years ago what kind of telephone were you using and did you use the internet much for banking?

I haven't decided it is a failure, I am just capable of performing simple math and reading facts. Based on economics, based on CO2 emissions, and based on reliability, based on backlash from consumers and voters, yes, it has been a failure everywhere so far, but I'm sure that just like how socialism has failed everywhere so far, it cannot be a fault of the ideology, but just in the application, and next time we will get it right. By what measure would you claim it has been a success?

I have studied the grid of Germany quite extensively. They are somewhat able to cope with the extreme unreliabability of renewables (with price increases that make Mallee's bills look modest, some areas have doubled yet again in only 18 months) by paying their neighbors to take the excess power ( yes paying) during peak supply and buying it back at extortionate rates from neighbors during peak loads. If their neighbors ever develop the same degree of renewables, that option will no longer be valid, and they will just be cold and dark often.

And, I will ask again, if you want to prove me wrong, then just find an example of somewhere reaping the benefits of this cheaper renewable energy. The closest I can find is a few places where the drastic drop in nat gas prices has swamped the increases due to renewables, but you so far can't even trot those out as champions to your cause.

[checking]

I'm not so sure that natural gas fired plants have a future. They generally require storage caverns which equal "protests". Maybe even protests without the power plant part.

Alton Gas, a subsidiary of Calgary based Altagas wanted to create 15 huge natural gas storage caverns near Fort Ellis, Nova Scotia. The process was to flush out salt deposits to create the underground caverns using Shubenacadic River water, a 73 kilometer tidal river. Over a period of two to three years the flushed brine from the carverns was to be pumped back into the tidal river, and out to sea.

Ah, no! The project has been on hold since 2014 over Nova Scotia and Indigenous Peoples environmental concerns on the brine impact on the tidal river.

Oh! cc. Sounds like you have a four car garage and still building on project with your array, as you may have heard, Sask farm acreages don't stay static, and certainly not production wise.

[oneoff]

FYI I am told that another yet unsolved problem with wholesale changeover to natural gas driven generation is ......its coming just wait a little bit




Lack of storage capacity as in no caverns available where they would be needed. Always another wrinkle when you just think up game changing bright ideas; but don't spend enough time on the critical thinking part.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

I'm not so sure that natural gas fired plants have a future. They generally require storage caverns which equal "protests". Maybe even protests without the power plant part.

Alton Gas, a subsidiary of Calgary based Altagas wanted to create 15 huge natural gas storage caverns near Fort Ellis, Nova Scotia. The process was to flush out salt deposits to create the underground caverns using Shubenacadic River water, a 73 kilometer tidal river. Over a period of two to three years the flushed brine from the carverns was to be pumped back into the tidal river, and out to sea.

Ah, no! The project has been on hold since 2014 over Nova Scotia and Indigenous Peoples environmental concerns on the brine impact on the tidal river.

Oh! cc. Sounds like you have a four car garage and still building on project with your array, as you may have heard, Sask farm acreages don't stay static, and certainly not production wise.

NIMBY's are against everything, solar, wind turbines, natural gas, fracking, oil, hydro. Until they actualy go hungry freezing in the dark, they will continue to oppose everything. See the thread I started a few days ago about this very thing. Progress in this country will be going backwards if they get their way.

Chucks panels may actually look like a smart investment when they manage to completely collapse the grid with their opposition to everything, at least Chuck will still have power for a few hours a day.

[oneoff]

And exactly what will happen if everyone jumps on the bandwagon to use solar generation for their 3 year anticipated demand; and everyone basically expects to freeload on the utility grid upgrades for "storage".

Obviously someone must pay; and it follows other persons, companies and business and industry (or debt) pays those carbon taxes and upgrade costs made for the benefit of those solar producers who saw a way to get cheaper electricity (for themselves)

[oneoff]

Renewable energy reduces carbon dioxide production from fossil fuels so some say

Its also true that solar energy components; don't reproduce themselves without creating some CO2 load. Sand doesn't become glass; minerals don't mine themselves; iron for smelting steel certainly might still needs metallurgical coal (coke). An aluminum production needs a power plant all for itself. Certainly we had better ramp up solar electricity to much more than than is produced in Prairie provinces; or we will actually be dependent on the old standby power producers (or maybe some just think Manitoba Hydro will give their power away to us.)

Not to mention the mothballing of perfectly functional conventional generation facilities; the employment and transport of the solar items to their construction sites; grid upgrades solely due to those many small scale generators; double the number of electrical meters; copper and aluminum wire necessary and a thousand other items that never entered into the calculation of how changing over to an alternate system of 50% renewable energy in Sask by 20XX for instance.

Ignore all above...that's what is happening. Not an ideal situation?????