Canadian grain Levies/Royalties

[TOM4CWB]

That 12 to 14 already has a royalty built into the price that the seed grower remits to the genetic owner. Im not sure the intention is to add more cost to that bushel of seed but instead change the way its collected to ensure that everyone using the genetics pays for the right to use it. I think most of the emotion and disagreement around the issue is for fear of the unknown. Perhaps some sort of cap to the max that can be charged regardless how its collected might alleviate some users concerns.

As mentioned by others the biggest issue to me is the deregistration and the recent wheat reclassification that goes on without farmer say or control. If there are issues with varieties let the market decide, if its not market based then leave it alone!

On a side note there is a premium to the seed grower, of course there is, there has to be or who would do it? I dont think its as big as most guys think after all costs in and the fact that most growers sit on good germ stuff a couple years to spread quality risk. I am a small farmer compared to lots on here but I buy new certified seed each year, for sure the economics are different on a larger scale. It just not worth the hassle of germ, cleaning storing and treating plus loss of screenings and I like to seed a few different varieties so that just multiplies the hassle.

GDR\Mallee,

GDR You hit the high points very well... including the 'demotion' of some wheat varieties after a couple of bad harvests[this should not have happened as grading could have solved any quality problems]. I received some 'stern' glances when I brought this up... so be it. New Varieties are normally about $1.40/bu royalty on Certified pedigreed wheat... so about $2.20/ac... average yield 1.2t/ac = about 1.90/t on royalty if EPR was in place... divide by 3... would be $.65/t/yr on an EPR like Aussies [Mallee] system. I figure the 'slippage' from those whom cheat... is reducing plant breeders royalties by 30-40% below these levels... so the folks who don't cheat are paying 30-40% more now... than if we went to an EPR system like Mallee [Aussies] use. I figure Certified Seed would come down by 15-20% if Canada went to an EPR system on commercial grain sales[back of napkin figures]. Thx for the question Mallee!
Cheers

[TOM4CWB]

GDR\Mallee,

GDR You hit the high points very well... including the 'demotion' of some wheat varieties after a couple of bad harvests[this should not have happened as grading could have solved any quality problems]. I received some 'stern' glances when I brought this up... so be it. New Varieties are normally about $1.40/bu royalty on Certified pedigreed wheat... so about $2.20/ac... average yield 1.2t/ac = about 1.90/t on royalty if EPR was in place... divide by 3... would be $.65/t/yr on an EPR like Aussies [Mallee] system. I figure the 'slippage' from those whom cheat... is reducing plant breeders royalties by 30-40% below these levels... so the folks who don't cheat are paying 30-40% more now... than if we went to an EPR system like Mallee [Aussies] use. I figure Certified Seed would come down by 15-20% if Canada went to an EPR system on commercial grain sales[back of napkin figures]. Thx for the question Mallee!
Cheers

BTW... perhaps the CGC would be a good agency to collect a western Canadian EPR as they can easily audit and verify which variety is being sold[to the commercial grain buyer]... and charge the right EPR royalties [nothing on older public varieties, to say $.80/t on new high performing genetics].
Just a thought.

[malleefarmer]

When we buy new now the seed grower says he has to pay a levy to the breeder allready and I think it bugs the hell out of then that I can get what I produce cleaned and keep using as long as I want.
If the seed grower can produce something better than what I can i would buy new from him every year but he can’t so I don’t.
He just wants to force me to!

So the new "rules" are trying to stop you from using farmer saved seed each year?
Still grappling with main contentious issue?

Someone give it me in 2 easy to read and understand australian sentences

[TOM4CWB]

So the new "rules" are trying to stop you from using farmer saved seed each year?
Still grappling with main contentious issue?

Someone give it me in 2 easy to read and understand australian sentences

Thx Mallee,

the 'new' "rules" are trying to implement an acreage levy [as well as the royalty on pedigreed planting seed]; when using farmer saved seed each year [hence a trailing levy]: when new varieties are grown[$1-2/ac perhaps which can happen without present UPOV 91/PBR laws needing to change]; which I am told recently may be accompanied with the present 'order in council' allowing the farmer saved seed provision being modified for easier enforcement;
or
An EPR on commercial sales by grain growers of cereals and pulses to grain buyers [new laws needed]'
or
remain the same as now... which would mean more enforcement to stop cheaters breaking present UPOV 91/PBR laws[which would also occur, in addition to trailing royalty acreage payment SCHEMES on agreements on farmer saved seed with declarations of all seed varieties planted required].

[jimmy]

Thx Mallee,

the 'new' "rules" are trying to implement an acreage levy [as well as the royalty on pedigreed planting seed]; when using farmer saved seed each year [hence a trailing levy]: when new varieties are grown[$1-2/ac perhaps which can happen without present UPOV 91/PBR laws needing to change]; which I am told recently may be accompanied with the present 'order in council' allowing the farmer saved seed provision being modified for easier enforcement;
or
An EPR on commercial sales by grain growers of cereals and pulses to grain buyers [new laws needed]'
or
remain the same as now... which would mean more enforcement to stop cheaters breaking present UPOV 91/PBR laws[which would also occur, in addition to trailing royalty acreage payment SCHEMES on agreements on farmer saved seed with declarations of all seed varieties planted required].

So in a nutshell forcing us to pay for mediocre seed that doesn’t create a whole lot more value. Tax

[farmaholic]

So in a nutshell forcing us to pay for mediocre seed that doesn’t create a whole lot more value. Tax

Who in their right mind advocates for higher costs for their business?

I truly believe nothing will improve for primary producers. In time all we will see is an additional cost, initially maybe $2-5/acre and later with the possibility of having to buy new seed every year, who knows maybe up to $25-40/acre, pick a number...it will be what ever the market will bear.

Stop treating grain producers like "shooting fish in a barrel"!

[bucket]

It's a great deal ....create many varieties and then after being on a commercial farm the true data comes out....

Maybe western vicki can comment on varietal data when she pucks the new racehorse variety to support and then what happens when varietal data is incomplete.?

GM tried having many vehicles of the same pedigree....silverado/Sierra. ..

Acadia/enclave/traverse/etc

And then the Pontiac line ....

That silliness ****ing near broke them.....actually it did....

[Jagfarms]

When a seed grower grows seed there is Royalty costs involved and are built into the seed price at the time

Seed Royalty prices $1.50-$2 bu on average
Application fees for growing seed
Crop inspection fees
Cleaning cost to clean to certified standard $1 bu plus
Trucking cost to truck seed to seed plant
Trucking cost to haul clean seed back for storage
Screenings cost when you clean seed to certified standards you will have more screenings than cleaning commercial standards
Use 15% as a average number
Most screenings get sold into feed market at feed price
Feed price is usually 1/2 or less of price of product
Then you have extra work of cleaning air drills , combines , anything that handles the seed from seeding to harvest
Extra work of isolation strips around seed fields
Having to pay wages and have someone to load seed for customers or run a tractor so you can load seed when you are seeding in the spring time


Will use a example of Durum this year

Durum market price #1 $7 bu
Inspection and application cost. $1 bu
Trucking cost $0.65
Cleaning cost. $1
Royalties. $1.8
Screenings loss. $0.50

$11.95

Certified Durum seed price on Average is $12 bu and get lower price if you buy bigger volume


Lots of times we don’t sell all the seed that is produced and the seed gets sold commercially to the grain terminals. We don’t pay royalties then but all the other costs are still there.
When a seed grower grows durum to produce certified seed they have to use registered, foundation or higher pedigreed to produce certified. The price of registered Durum would be $15 on average and $17 for foundation.

Now that depresses me after typing in all these numbers as it looks like we will be lucky to break even with Durum seed this year.

[walterm]

When a seed grower grows seed there is Royalty costs involved and are built into the seed price at the time

Seed Royalty prices $1.50-$2 bu on average
Application fees for growing seed
Crop inspection fees
Cleaning cost to clean to certified standard $1 bu plus
Trucking cost to truck seed to seed plant
Trucking cost to haul clean seed back for storage
Screenings cost when you clean seed to certified standards you will have more screenings than cleaning commercial standards
Use 15% as a average number
Most screenings get sold into feed market at feed price
Feed price is usually 1/2 or less of price of product
Then you have extra work of cleaning air drills , combines , anything that handles the seed from seeding to harvest

Extra work of isolation strips around seed fields
Having to pay wages and have someone to load seed for customers or run a tractor so you can load seed when you are seeding in the spring time


Will use a example of Durum this year

Durum market price #1 $7 bu
Inspection and application cost. $1 bu
Trucking cost $0.65
Cleaning cost. $1
Royalties. $1.8
Screenings loss. $0.50

$11.95

Certified Durum seed price on Average is $12 bu and get lower price if you by bigger volume


Lots of times we don’t sell all the seed that is produced and the seed gets sold commercially to the grain terminals. We don’t pay royalties then but all the other costs are still there.
When a seed grower grows durum to produce certified seed they have to use registered, foundation or higher pedigreed to produce certified. The price of registered Durum would be $15 on average and $17 for foundation.

Now that depresses me after typing in all these numbers as it looks like we will be lucky to break even with Durum seed this year.

Thx nice break down. My question is why are seed growers so pro EPR. If farmers end up paying EPR on bin run won't they just elect to use more of their own bin run seed rather than from seed grower at current prices as long as germ and vigor is there.

Will the result in lost sales be more or less than the system today including the small amount of brown bag seed sold from farmer to farmer.

[furrowtickler]

When a seed grower grows seed there is Royalty costs involved and are built into the seed price at the time

Seed Royalty prices $1.50-$2 bu on average
Application fees for growing seed
Crop inspection fees
Cleaning cost to clean to certified standard $1 bu plus
Trucking cost to truck seed to seed plant
Trucking cost to haul clean seed back for storage
Screenings cost when you clean seed to certified standards you will have more screenings than cleaning commercial standards
Use 15% as a average number
Most screenings get sold into feed market at feed price
Feed price is usually 1/2 or less of price of product
Then you have extra work of cleaning air drills , combines , anything that handles the seed from seeding to harvest
Extra work of isolation strips around seed fields
Having to pay wages and have someone to load seed for customers or run a tractor so you can load seed when you are seeding in the spring time


Will use a example of Durum this year

Durum market price #1 $7 bu
Inspection and application cost. $1 bu
Trucking cost $0.65
Cleaning cost. $1
Royalties. $1.8
Screenings loss. $0.50

$11.95

Certified Durum seed price on Average is $12 bu and get lower price if you by bigger volume


Lots of times we don’t sell all the seed that is produced and the seed gets sold commercially to the grain terminals. We don’t pay royalties then but all the other costs are still there.
When a seed grower grows durum to produce certified seed they have to use registered, foundation or higher pedigreed to produce certified. The price of registered Durum would be $15 on average and $17 for foundation.

Now that depresses me after typing in all these numbers as it looks like we will be lucky to break even with Durum seed this year.

Thanks for showing numbers Jag without a bunch of rhetoric.

[farmaholic]

When I can no longer get any more income from the market the next thing I need to do is shave costs. Maybe some of the costs paid for producing certified seed need to fall! Take some of those costs up with the seed grower associations if they're too high. No one cares if the primary producer is profitable as long as everyone supplying goods and services is profitable and can take as much as the market will bear.

How about the entities supplying goods and services make the adjustments for a change? But NO, no one wants to give up anything they've gained and established, well neither do I. How much waste in dead-beat dead-weight employees? How much waste in excessive advertising? How much waste in useless bureaucracy? How about thinner margins and belt tightening like primary producers are forced to do when finances get tight. Don't expect your customers to do anything you won't DO!

[Jagfarms]

It came down to a very close vote at seed growers meeting. I don’t think 🤔 they are really sure how it’s going to work yet and they are still workin things out.

The way it sounds like it will be in place for new varieties coming out after these new rules are in place is won’t effect varieties that are out now previous to the new rules coming into place.

So when I sell seed as a seed grower of a new variety I will not have to pay royalties on the seed that I sell.

The farmer that buys the seed from the seed grower will pay the royalties on the seed. Before the seed grower was paying the royalties for you and now the farmer will pay the royalties. The price of the Certified seed will be a lower purchase price from the seed grower if we do not have to pay royalties.


If the farmer uses that new variety for seed the next year or years they will pay royalties on the amount of seed that is used for planting on thier farm.


I’m Not sure what the Royalty amount will be.


My views. It could discourage brown bagging seed as Certified seed prices will be more competitive than using your own seed for new varieties.
If the farmer has to pay royalties on seed they use will they share the new seed technology with thier neighbors at no cost?

In the future I think the seed companies will be checking seed varieties at delivery points and in the field. They can check varieties by doing DNA testing on the seed. Will have to have a record where the the farmer got the seed from.