Chuck, some good news about renewables. No, really.

[Hamloc]

Of course not. You can actually have both operating at the same time. But you haven't grasped that concept yet have you. Most utilities have several sources of generation plus interconnection backups.

I have solar and Sask power. Its not one or the other is it? They both operate together.

This must be a trying time for the flat earthers in Alberta, to see big business including oil companies, investing in renewables and reducing carbon emissions.

Why do those on the left always resort to name calling like “flat earthers”? I usually attempt to debate basing my numbers on actual fact. But if you don’t believe the propaganda of the left out comes the name calling, why?!

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Why do those on the left always resort to name calling like “flat earthers”? I usually attempt to debate basing my numbers on actual fact. But if you don’t believe the propaganda of the left out comes the name calling, why?!

Because what possible facts could he present to counter the facts in my original post? He hasn't even attempted to respond to them, yet chuck ( and most recently AB4, which is why I dredged up this post), keep claiming that battery storage is going to be the silver bullet that makes intermittent sources viable at large penetrations.

He can not, and will not find a cut and paste to counter the facts in this thread. And since he is incapable of formulating his own opinions, all that is left to do is to name call.

But speaking of propaganda. Chuck conveniently ignores the fact that most governments, and UN type agencies are calling for net zero and complete phase out of fossil fuels within a few decades. The only replacements they are touting are the unreliables. There are only two ways this can work.
Either adapt our societies to only use energy when it is available( sun shines, or wind blows).
Or, Enough energy storage is installed to maintain our current expectations of energy reliability.

The real world example indicates that we will require 3 months of storage to make that feasible without any fossil fuel back up. Given that the US currently has 3 one hundreths of a second of battery storage, and the cost of that drop in the bucket is already mind blowing, extrapolating that to 3 months is not even in the realm of possibility.

He also has not even attempted to address the article claiming that unreliables already require 10 times more labour to provide 10 times less energy than fossil fuels.

[chuckChuck]

A5, just keep trying to separate yourself from the rest of Canada and leave the business of running utilities and generating electricity to those who know what they are doing.

You just can't face the fact that regardless of what arm chair "experts" like you think, Alberta already has significant amounts of renewables and is installing more along with shutting down coal and shifting to lower emission natural gas. Saskatchewan is doing the same thing. Manitoba has surplus hydro. So not everyone shares your myopic one sided views of how to generate electricity.

[chuckChuck]

Why do those on the left always resort to name calling like “flat earthers”? I usually attempt to debate basing my numbers on actual fact. But if you don’t believe the propaganda of the left out comes the name calling, why?!

So its only the 'left" on Agriville who are name calling? You must have very thin skin. Hypocrites usually do.

[chuckChuck]

As I have said countless times, I have no issue with solar and wind being added to the generation mix. I think diversification is always positive. But that is not what is being promoted by those on the left. They believe solar and wind can be the sole source of electrical generation, your inability to admit that that is the messaging Chuck2 shows that you are a hypocrite!

As for environmental damage from oil and gas production, certainly there is, I have never said there wasn’t but proponents of wind and solar act like there is no environmental implications from their use which certainly isn’t true either!

You are lumping all proponents of renewables into the same camp. Most are sensible enough to know we are not going to rely on only renewables untill viable replacements exist and storage systems are developed. Neither you or I will know what the system will look like in 50 or 100 years.

Did you predict that farmers would be using smart phones and GPS auto steering systems in 1980? We still had a party line in 1988.

[shtferbrains]

Hamloc, So what? We all know that wind and solar are intermittent.

More importantly when they are producing electricity they are displacing fossil sources and reducing carbon emissions.

I think you are finally make this solar thing clear to us Chuck.
I can see now the best opportunity for large scale solar is the high Artic.
Solves the issue with intermittent production as they have 24 hr day sunlight giving them 100% capacity factor. Huge tracts of available land owed by government so free.
Indigenous partnering opertunities opening up taxpayer involvment.
Near 100% reliance on diesle for power now. Think of the virtue signaling on that one!
The just need a pitance spent on transmision lines to join the interconect so they could get in on the interconect and grid tie to make it be the best solar investment n the world.
Their days are a bit shorter for part of the year but so what. It's always intermittent no matter where you build it.
We can be the world leader in solar just depends how much you want to invest.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

You are lumping all proponents of renewables into the same camp. Most are sensible enough to know we are not going to rely on only renewables untill viable replacements exist and storage systems are developed.

Well that is one of the most sensible posts from Chuck.
Too bad all of the proponents who are in positions of power arent sensible enough to wait until the technology exists. They are all diving head first into zero carbon and zero fossil fuels with deadlines that have no relation to any potential technological breakthroughs.
It is good to hear you lumping the Trudeau's and biden's and UN's and Greenpeace's of the world into the unsensible category.

[chuckChuck]

Do you really think utilities would go all intermittent sources without adequate storage and leave consumers in the dark? LOL

Since its up to the utilities and governments to move on lowering carbon emissions lets see how they proceed.

In Alberta the largest solar array in Canada at a cost of $700 million is just about to be built. Do you think they are doing it without a viable business plan?

Time will tell what low carbon sources and systems will prevail. And its not going to be coal in Alberta!

Canada is well positioned with its massive hydro resources to have a lot of low carbon cleaner electricity. In fact we already do in most of Canada.

[TASFarms]

Do you really think utilities would go all intermittent sources without adequate storage and leave consumers in the dark? LOL

Since its up to the utilities and governments to move on lowering carbon emissions lets see how they proceed.

In Alberta the largest solar array in Canada at a cost of $700 million is just about to be built. Do you think they are doing it without a viable business plan?

Time will tell what low carbon sources and systems will prevail. And its not going to be coal in Alberta!

Canada is well positioned with its massive hydro resources to have a lot of low carbon cleaner electricity. In fact we already do in most of Canada.

Out of the $700 million how much is from the govt?

[Hamloc]

You are lumping all proponents of renewables into the same camp. Most are sensible enough to know we are not going to rely on only renewables untill viable replacements exist and storage systems are developed. Neither you or I will know what the system will look like in 50 or 100 years.

Did you predict that farmers would be using smart phones and GPS auto steering systems in 1980? We still had a party line in 1988.

The interesting difference is the smart phone is a small hand held computer with far more capacity than the personal computers that existed in 1988, truly a technological advancement. Solar panels existed in 1988 and really haven’t changed that much since 1988 except that they are now made in China and therefore are far less expensive. They still aren’t recyclable, they still take many acres of space to generate electricity and to say they are a technological advancement is really wrong. Still intermittent, still only make cents with government subsidy!

[chuckChuck]

Out of the $700 million how much is from the govt?

Not sure on that. But governments also spend a lot on the oil and gas industry. Far more in total than is spent on renewable electricity.

Governments also subsidize agriculture and farmers. But you don't want to talk about that do you? LOL

[farming101]

Not sure on that. But governments also spend a lot on the oil and gas industry. Far more in total than is spent on renewable electricity.

Governments also subsidize agriculture and farmers. But you don't want to talk about that do you? LOL

No fuel=no industry
No food=no people

[chuckChuck]

The interesting difference is the smart phone is a small hand held computer with far more capacity than the personal computers that existed in 1988, truly a technological advancement. Solar panels existed in 1988 and really haven’t changed that much since 1988 except that they are now made in China and therefore are far less expensive. They still aren’t recyclable, they still take many acres of space to generate electricity and to say they are a technological advancement is really wrong. Still intermittent, still only make cents with government subsidy!

They are a lot cheaper and more efficient now and are still dropping in price. At the utility scale, solar and wind are producing some of the lowest cost electricity in the world now without subsidies. The fuel is free and clean. And panels will be recycled.

They could be put on roofs in many areas of the world.

From Bloomberg

Building New Renewables Is Cheaper Than Burning Fossil Fuels
By Will Mathis
June 23, 2021, 5:31 a.m. CST Updated on June 23, 2021, 7:05 a.m. CST

It’s now cheaper to build and operate new large-scale wind or solar plants in nearly half the world than it would be to run an existing coal or gas-fired power plant.

That’s the latest analysis from BloombergNEF, which sees that even with the risk of rising commodity prices, a new solar park or wind farm is still competitive with existing coal or gas plants in countries that represent 46% of the world’s population.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-23/building-new-renewables-cheaper-than-running-fossil-fuel-plants https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-23/building-new-renewables-cheaper-than-running-fossil-fuel-plants

[Hamloc]

They are a lot cheaper and more efficient now and are still dropping in price. At the utility scale, solar and wind are producing some of the lowest cost electricity in the world now without subsidies. The fuel is free and clean. And panels will be recycled.

They could be put on roofs in many areas of the world.

From Bloomberg

Building New Renewables Is Cheaper Than Burning Fossil Fuels
By Will Mathis
June 23, 2021, 5:31 a.m. CST Updated on June 23, 2021, 7:05 a.m. CST

It’s now cheaper to build and operate new large-scale wind or solar plants in nearly half the world than it would be to run an existing coal or gas-fired power plant.

That’s the latest analysis from BloombergNEF, which sees that even with the risk of rising commodity prices, a new solar park or wind farm is still competitive with existing coal or gas plants in countries that represent 46% of the world’s population.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-23/building-new-renewables-cheaper-than-running-fossil-fuel-plants https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-23/building-new-renewables-cheaper-than-running-fossil-fuel-plants

Farmers are really the greatest harvesters of the sun whether it be in beef or pork or grain, we take what the sun gives us and it is harvested and stored to be consumed when necessary and our federal government with its carbon tax policies aim to make Canadian farmers uncompetitive with the rest of the world. This same government is going to spend billions more subsidizing Chinese solar panels and putting more Canadians in the energy industry on the unemployment line!!!

[burnt]

Farmers are really the greatest harvesters of the sun whether it be in beef or pork or grain, we take what the sun gives us and it is harvested and stored to be consumed when necessary and our federal government with its carbon tax policies aim to make Canadian farmers uncompetitive with the rest of the world. This same government is going to spend billions more subsidizing Chinese solar panels and putting more Canadians in the energy industry on the unemployment line!!!

So in real terms, a carbon tax is a tax on harvesting sunshine. Fresh or stored.

Carbon tax on meat - coming soon to a store near you.


Dang, I wish I'da thought of that and patented it. Endless, guaranteed revenue.