Newfoundland Vote

[jazz]

Parts of central asia and western China have very good solar resources. Parts of North America also.
The southern prairies look good as well.

That doesn't mean Canada will look like Arizona or Australia when it comes to renewables. It will vary by region and country. Solar is only one option.

I consider any tech with 10% penetration dead.

Solar in Sask does little for Vancouver or Toronto now doesn't it. How will it get there.

And wind is even more localized than solar with the same problem, how to move it to where people live.

[jazz]

Here is solar + wind potential and each dot is a city with more than a million people. See how far that resource is from where people live. Unless we are going to build millions of miles of new transmission, this tech is fringe at best.

[jazz]

And if you think coal is dead you better try harder.

Here is a link to all coal plants in the world.

Sorry, renewables, you aint going to be overtaking anything anytime soon no matter how many unicorns jump out of your ass.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants Mapped: The world’s coal power plants

[chuckChuck]

Ziehan is one analysts against the the IEA and Bloomberg. Who do you think has more credibility, a single author or a large international organization and research group with many different types of specialist and experts?

"I consider any tech with 10% penetration dead." LOL

Huh? Canada produces less than 4% of the worlds wheat. Is the Canadian wheat industry dead?

"Solar in Sask does little for Vancouver or Toronto now doesn't it. How will it get there.
And wind is even more localized than solar with the same problem, how to move it to where people live."

Huh again? How do they move renewable hydro electricity from northern Quebec to the US? Or from Manitoba to Saskatchewan?

In many cases in many parts of the world the solar will be on the roof tops or in nearby utility scale projects.

Solar and wind are not the answer in every jurisdiction. And I never said they were.

[seldomseen]

Chuck you think exactly like some of my NDP neighbors. I have listened to them for years wail on and on about Grant Devine then in the next sentence they brag about how smart they are because they got gas and it costs them nothing to dry their grain and heat their buildings. How many lives were saved with underground power? How about the convenience of not farming around power poles and not having the power out when ever the weather was bad?

Hugh investment in infrastructure that brought Sask out of the Stone age after years of NDP rule and all during the worst economic decade in Saskatchewan since the thirty's. All that infrastructure cost but over time has payed back enormous benefit to the quality of life in Sask.

[chuckChuck]

Chuck you think exactly like some of my NDP neighbors. I have listened to them for years wail on and on about Grant Devine then in the next sentence they brag about how smart they are because they got gas and it costs them nothing to dry their grain and heat their buildings. How many lives were saved with underground power? How about the convenience of not farming around power poles and not having the power out when ever the weather was bad?

Hugh investment in infrastructure that brought Sask out of the Stone age after years of NDP rule and all during the worst economic decade in Saskatchewan since the thirty's. All that infrastructure cost but over time has payed back enormous benefit to the quality of life in Sask.

I agree rural gas has been great. I missed out on underground power lines. But because of the oil industry we spend a lot of time dodging older poles. The new leases all have underground.

The original post was about Newfoundland and their tremendous debt and risk because of Muskrat falls and a downturn in the oil economy. This happened while the Conservatives were in power.

Grant Devine was caught in a bad economy mostly beyond his control. But its governments job to manage the situation as best as possible.

There were several grant and loan programs that went to people who didn't need it. I don't have my finger on all the budgets of those years. But the lets face the fact that Devine's Conservatives weren't the most fiscally responsible government.

Romanow had to cut services and save the province from financial ruin because of Devine's mismanagement. Conservatives still blame Romanow for cutting in rural Saskatchewan.

Conservatives often have a poor record in managing provincial finances. So lets end the myth that Conservative governments are fiscally more responsible.

The two examples of Devine's Saskatchewan and more recent Conservative governments in Newfoundland are prime examples.

[SASKFARMER]

Ah chuck explain some thing to me, we were supposed to be close to bankrupt but at the same time Manitoba under the ndp with piss all for natural resources etc was no where close with three times the debt. Yea right we were broke.


Biggest con job ever accomplished and I give it to roy it was a great slight of hand look here for the win.

[Guest]

oh shit chuck , those damn details again?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Here is something Chuck and I can agree about. No political party has a monopoly on poor fiscal management. About the only minor difference is if they have a spending problem, revenue problem or both. There is no such thing as a fiscal conservative government, only voters.

[jazz]

No party can keep their hands off the cookie jar, but here is the difference, spending can either be an investment in something tangible or it can go into the fire. At least after Devine I can physically go visit rafferty or terra fuels as its now known. Trudeau wasted a bunch of money into thin air that created nothing.

Spend it here, spend it on things that have some enduring value even if its not an instant money maker. I would rather see a boondoggle hydro dam than a donation to the UN.

Romanow had to cut services and save the province from financial ruin because of Devine's mismanagement. Conservatives still blame Romanow for cutting in rural Saskatchewan.
.

And lets end the myth that Romanow was some fiscal savior. He consolidated services to the cities to dilute the rural vote. Why else would the rural and Plains hospital get closed and Saskatoon get 2 new hospitals.

[bucket]

No party can keep their hands off the cookie jar, but here is the difference, spending can either be an investment in something tangible or it can go into the fire. At least after Devine I can physically go visit rafferty or terra fuels as its now known. Trudeau wasted a bunch of money into thin air that created nothing.

Spend it here, spend it on things that have some enduring value even if its not an instant money maker. I would rather see a boondoggle hydro dam than a donation to the UN.

Devine left a legacy that has funded the province very well....unfortunately stupid people thought they were smarter than Grant Devine...

He mortgaged the province on agriculture and the provinces resources....a pretty good bet and vision for Devine...many don't realize his contribution to the wealth of this province....and he didn't do it for money.....he did it for province and country...

Its too bad there are not more like him...

It worries me that the new federal environment minister apprenticed under Roy Romanow....if no one is concerned...they should be....

[chuckChuck]

https://esask.uregina.ca/entry/devine_grant_1944-.jsp

The Encyclopedia of Saskatchewan

Grant Devine was born July 5, 1944, in Regina, and was raised on a farm that his grandfather had homesteaded near Lake Valley, not far from Moose Jaw. After high school he enrolled at the University of Saskatchewan, where he earned a BSc in Agriculture. He pursued post-graduate studies and completed a PhD in Agricultural Economics at Ohio State University in 1976. He joined the faculty of the University of Saskatchewan, where he taught Agricultural Marketing and Consumer Economics.

Devine was drawn to politics at a time when the fortunes of the Saskatchewan Progressive Conservative Party were rising. Dick Collver, who was elected leader in 1973, argued that the Liberals were a spent force provincially and that the only way to dislodge the NDP government was to build an anti-socialist coalition around the Conservatives. His brand of right-wing Populism appealed to voters. In the 1978 election, the PCs displaced the Liberals as the official opposition.

The election marked Grant Devine's entry into electoral politics. He contested the constituency of Saskatoon Nutana and was soundly defeated. When Collver stepped down as leader, Devine put his name forward and cruised to victory at the November 1979 convention. He led the party into the provincial election called for April 26, 1982. It soon became evident that the NDP was vulnerable. Interest rates were at 18% and there was a feeling that Allan Blakeney's eleven-year-old government was out of touch with the people. On the first day of the campaign, Devine announced that he would eliminate the provincial tax on gasoline. This was followed by a commitment to guarantee home mortgage rates at 13.25%. The Conservatives rolled to victory, winning 54.1% of the popular vote and 55 out of 64 seats in the Legislature.

One of the first actions of the new administration was to organize an “Open for Business” conference in October 1982 to advertise the fact that the “socialist” era was over, and private investment and free enterprise were welcome in Saskatchewan. As an incentive to the oil industry, the government introduced a three-year royalty holiday for new wells and reduced royalties for existing wells. Drilling increased markedly, but at the sacrifice of a lower royalty revenue share of the value of production. The expansion of Crown corporations was curtailed, but there was no large-scale effort to sell them. A notable exception was the Land Bank, which the NDP had set up to facilitate the inter-generational transfer of land. Devine said the government should not be in the business of owning land, and he dismantled the Land Bank (see Agricultural Policy), replacing it with 8% loans to enable farmers to purchase their own land.

The government ran consecutive deficit budgets, accumulating a debt of over $1.5 billion its first four years in office. Sensing that he might lose the 1986 election, Devine opened the coffers, giving farmers production loans at 6% and homeowners $1,500 home-improvement matching grants. The strategy worked. Although he narrowly lost the popular vote to the NDP, Devine won a second term with 38 seats, against 25 for the NDP and one for the Liberals. In doing so, the PCs ran up a deficit of over $1.2 billion in 1986-87, a far cry from the deficit figure of $389 million that had been presented in the pre-election budget.

The fiscal crisis led to cutbacks in services, cancellation of programs, and firing of employees. The government launched a Privatization crusade, disposing of a wide array of Crown Corporations from the $15 million SaskMinerals to the potash Corporation, valued at well over $1 billion. When the government broke its promise not to sell utilities and placed the natural gas division of SaskPower on the block, the NDP brought the Legislature to a halt by letting the bells ring for seventeen days. The public sided with the NDP, and the government backed down from the sale.

Although he pledged to get government out of business, Devine gave loans, subsidies, guarantees and other incentives to private business. The results were impressive: two Heavy Oil Upgraders, a fertilizer plant, a paper mill, a pulp mill, and a bacon-processing plant. The Rafferty-Alameda Dams were built as a public works megaproject. However, the government was never able to control the debt it had incurred in its first term. By the end of the 1980s it was running a surplus on operating expenses excluding debt charges, but interest payments drove the province deeper into debt each year. By 1991-92 the accumulated debt was over $15 billion, and annual interest payments exceeded $500 million, the third-largest item in the budget after health and Education.

On the national scene, Devine reversed the old rule of Saskatchewan politics: pick a fight with Ottawa at election time. He was a staunch supporter of Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and gave wholehearted support to Mulroney's two main initiatives, the Meech Lake Accord and the Free Trade Agreement with the United States. Mulroney responded with deficiency payments to Saskatchewan farmers who were suffering Drought and record-low grain prices. Farmers were not the only beneficiaries: the billion-dollar assistance package announced days before the 1986 provincial election was a key element in Devine's victory.

Devine sought to undo the legacy of CCF/NDP socialism in Saskatchewan and build a pro-business, entrepreneurial culture. His government carried out a massive privatization program, reduced Social Assistance payments, and curbed the power of Labour unions, but private enterprise continued to rely heavily on government financial assistance. The greatest failure of the Devine years was the accumulation of an unprecedented debt, much of it attributable to tax cuts and unwise election spending. The government lost power in 1991, winning only 10 seats and 25% of the popular vote. After the election, a scandal came to light, resulting in the conviction of several former Conservative MLAs on fraud charges. Despite setbacks, Devine remained an eternal optimist holding fast to his free enterprise principles and his belief in the potential of Saskatchewan. In 2004, Devine attempted a political comeback, but lost in his effort to win a seat in Parliament in the federal election of that year.