Tesla cybertruck

[jazz]

Ok but which is more expensive, $1000 of fuel or $300 of electricity?

Don't think you are putting $1000 a month in fuel. Hundred bucks a week does a lot of driving unless you are a long distance commuter. The extra $30k price tag buys a lot of fuel, especially farm diesel.

The EV on the markets that makes the most sense is this Mitsubishi PHEV hybrid.

[ALBERTAFARMER4]

I am all for electric vehicles, especially for replacing a short trip runaround vehicle such as a farm pickup truck. So many advantages, especially as compared to a modern diesel with emissions controls. Cheap to operate, reliable, maintenance free, high performance, true 4wd, no emissions control nightmares, no road tax, plus all the reasons already listed by other posters.

Trouble is, they are being marketed as a solution to a non existent problem. And they don't even solve that. The electricity grid is still, and will remain, dominantly powered by fossil fuels, so the electric vehicles, are still fossil fuel powered, still emitting beneficial CO2, and still result in all of the unintended consequences of resource extraction, all of the inefficiencies inherent in converting hydrocarbons to useful energy are still there, except we get to add the line losses and the conversion to and from electrical energy to the list.

If electric vehicles ever achieve sufficient market penetration, governments will discover that tax revenues to build and maintain our road infrastructure is sorely lacking, and the free ride on not paying fuel taxes will come to an end, likely replaced by a per km driven fee based off GPS, where every road becomes a toll road, taking a large bite out of the cost advantage.

And most importantly, well-intentioned, but grossly uninformed and ignorant governments are determined to drive electricity costs to levels far beyond being competitive with fossil fuels, with their renewable mandates. If reducing CO2 emissions is their goal, then FF power plants need to be replaced by drastically more expensive renewables, and then the cost advantage of driving electric vehicles is lost completely, unless of course, they also tax FF vehicles disproportionately to force the market into the least worst option.

In other words, the cost advantage to operating an EV is likely at its peak right now, and will only decline from here forward.

Those are fair points. However as a farmer and land owner I have a lot of leverage against power companies if they decide to charge me an unfair price for electricity. The farm of the future will produce food AND energy. If farms can use their own energy to grow crops and also pump excess energy into the grid during the off season they essentially become a year round profit generating business. But we all know that gas/diesel prices are always fair and no one on agriville has ever complained about the fuel price. At the end of the day I'm looking at this from a math based approach. What is the total cost per mile? If EV is cheaper than ICE then it's a no brainer.

As far as road tax, most farmers are running dyed fuel anyways. City folk will have to pay a higher registration fee for an EV to make a contribution to road tax.

Anyone who is interested in an EV, has questions about charging infrastructure, or wants to test drive my car (model 3) to see what autopilot is really like can message me on here. Or hopefully in 2 years try out my truck!

[AlbertaFarmer5]

At 11 cents a kwh expect your electricity to come in around 50% of what your fuel bill would be.

Just a few months ago quantum supremecy was completely theoretical. Google proved that quantum computers can solve problems in seconds that the best conventional super computers would grind over for years. Couple a quantum computer with AI and its a complete game changer. In a few years we may see new battery chemistry that is multiples better than lithium ion. Imagine if the truck had a 1000mile, 2000mile or even 5000 mile range. with a battery with a 50 yr life expectancy. Sounds like science fiction but so did quantum computing just a few years ago.

Probably going to happen, but it won't be a lithium ion battery, they are already virtually at their theoretical limit. Not only are there no order of magnitude changes possible for the Li-ion battery, even incremental improvements are already exhausted. It needs to be completely different technology, so the EV you buy today with the same Li-ion batteries as your cell phone, will be obsolete or need a major upgrade to whatever the new battery technology is replacing it.

I posted a link to MIT researchers a while back. Battery technology needs to become cheaper by a factor of 10 for renewables to be competitive with fossil fuels, that is what EV's on a renewable grid are up against right now.

[jazz]

Sounds like science fiction but so did quantum computing just a few years ago.

And they are still working on fusion BL, 50 yrs now.

If you want to be efficient for the sake of efficiency, the solutions are right there. The easiest way to reduce emission is to make transport and travel less necessary. I have city neighbors commuting downtown in dodge duallys. I would say that's not necessary. I would say a lot of jobs can be done from home (but then could be moved to another country as well). I would say skype could do a lot of business meetings. I would say having a city lighted with neon signs is a waste. I dont find shipping lumber to china and ikea furniture back very efficient. etc.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Those are fair points. However as a farmer and land owner I have a lot of leverage against power companies if they decide to charge me an unfair price for electricity. The farm of the future will produce food AND energy. If farms can use their own energy to grow crops and also pump excess energy into the grid during the off season they essentially become a year round profit generating business. But we all know that gas/diesel prices are always fair and no one on agriville has ever complained about the fuel price. At the end of the day I'm looking at this from a math based approach. What is the total cost per mile? If EV is cheaper than ICE then it's a no brainer.

As far as road tax, most farmers are running dyed fuel anyways. City folk will have to pay a higher registration fee for an EV to make a contribution to road tax.

Anyone who is interested in an EV, has questions about charging infrastructure, or wants to test drive my car (model 3) to see what autopilot is really like can message me on here. Or hopefully in 2 years try out my truck!

Yes, as of today, a massive cost benefit per mile to the EV, but project it forward, with large increases in EV sales. Along with that will come massive investment in infrastructure, and generating capacity, which will get built into the cost of electricity. We are coasting on primarily decades old, paid for generation and transmission today.

As a farmer, with unlimited surface area, and crop byproducts, we certainly have options that most don't have, and if you have found a way to leverage that, then well done, I would like to know more.

[jazz]

Those are fair points. However as a farmer and land owner I have a lot of leverage against power companies if they decide to charge me an unfair price for electricity. The farm of the future will produce food AND energy.

You do know that western Canada is already covered with 100m acres of solar panels right? Food is energy already. makes more sense to ramp up biodiesel and ethanol that solar panels. Biodeisel and ethanol are 100% carbon neutral and require a fraction of the chemistry and external energy to convert versus making panels or windmills and no physical waste product.

Another solution ignored.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

All-Electric Vehicles
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml

All-electric vehicles (EVs) run on electricity only. They are propelled by one or more electric motors powered by rechargeable battery packs. EVs have several advantages over conventional vehicles:

Energy efficient. EVs convert about 59%–62% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.*
Environmentally friendly. EVs emit no tailpipe pollutants, although the power plant producing the electricity may emit them. Electricity from nuclear-, hydro-, solar-, or wind-powered plants causes no air pollutants.
Performance benefits. Electric motors provide quiet, smooth operation and stronger acceleration and require less maintenance than internal combustion engines (ICEs).
Reduced energy dependence. Electricity is a domestic energy source.

Except as of today, most generation still comes from fossil fuels. Coal plants have a thermal efficiency of 37%. Combine that with the EV efficiency of ~60%, and you get total efficiency of 22%, minus line loss in transmission. Right in line with fossil fuel power directly. There is no free lunch, and the laws of thermodynamics have not been overturned yet.

[bucket]

Except as of today, most generation still comes from fossil fuels. Coal plants have a thermal efficiency of 37%. Combine that with the EV efficiency of ~60%, and you get total efficiency of 22%, minus line loss in transmission. Right in line with fossil fuel power directly. There is no free lunch, and the laws of thermodynamics have not been overturned yet.

Do not bring facts or the word thermodynamics into a conversation that the cut and paste crowd do not understand....I took thermodynamics in post secondary school and hardly understood it with good marks...

[jazz]

Do not bring facts or the word thermodynamics into a conversation that the cut and paste crowd do not understand....I took thermodynamics in post secondary school and hardly understood it with good marks...

Basically just moving the source of the fuel and its conversion to energy further away from city folks. Out of sight, out of mind, virtue signal received. Just like the inconvenient truths about food and where our goods come from. People don't want to get dirty with details. They let the deplorables worry about that.

[ALBERTAFARMER4]

Except as of today, most generation still comes from fossil fuels. Coal plants have a thermal efficiency of 37%. Combine that with the EV efficiency of ~60%, and you get total efficiency of 22%, minus line loss in transmission. Right in line with fossil fuel power directly. There is no free lunch, and the laws of thermodynamics have not been overturned yet.

70kwh will get me about 400km of range in a Tesla model 3 (driving 115-120km/h).
1 gallon of gasoline is 33kwh energy equivalent.
Or 1L of gasoline is 8.9 kWh.
70/8.9 = 7.9L total per 400km.
1.96L/100km.

When is the last time the price of electricity went up for a long weekend?

[blackpowder]

The dual motor version is $70k so how do you buy a truck for $0 ? Are you not at all interested in a truck that is cheap to operate, reliable, rugged, with crazy performance specs? I mean I guess you could go buy a loaded up 1/2 ton dodge for $85k. It will have kleenex thin sheetmetal that will get paint chipped on gravel roads. It won't have 16" of ground clearance. It will need oil changes, air filters, fuel filters, transmission service, etc. The glass will get rock chips and crack. It will rust out and start to fall apart. The electronics will start to crap out. I say all of this as a huge Dodge fan as well. Will your dodge connect to the internet and download new updates of google maps? Will they add more horsepower to the vehicle while you sleep? Is there any chance that a dodge could pick you up autonomously at another field when you take your seeding rig over?

Most farms have pretty adequate power infrastructure as well so charging on site should not be an issue at all. Also in regards to cold temperatures an electric vehicle does surprisingly well. You don't ever have to worry if it will start. The cabin can go from -30 to +28 in about 10 minutes. Yes range will decrease due to the added density of cold air, winter tires, and snow on the road.

OK. I saw the $70k USD number and came up with $95CD.
A two wheel drive truck is really just sucking a tit through a sweater.
My last 3 trucks over 20 years. All of which are still working. Cost $6500, $24000, and $21500 respectively. Bought slightly used. Plain Jane's.
8 - 10cents per kilometre out to 300,000 km. Two of which are past that.
I pay for tool, not cool. And yes I operate a commercial grain farm.
I'll need my money to retire on. You can do what you want with yours.

[blackpowder]

Ok but which is more expensive, $1000 of fuel or $300 of electricity?

The time value of money covers a good portion of the fuel spread.
I spend thousands a year on electronic - electrical issues on equipment. Not on pickups though.
Electric is the future yes. I have to survive today.