Some substantial reading

[grassfarmer]

In answer to Bucket's perpetual question "what are our farm groups doing?" here is a discussion document by the NFU on the farm and climate crisis. I know this will spur the usual outpouring of hatred and ridicule but i'd challenge you to get past that and actually read the document. It's a hefty read and lots I don't agree with but it contains many valuable discussions and details that we could all reflect upon.

http://www.nfu.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Tackling-the-Farm-Crisis-and-the-Climate-Crisis-Final-with-covers.pdf http://https://www.nfu.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Tackling-the-Farm-Crisis-and-the-Climate-Crisis-Final-with-covers.pdf

[agstar77]

Scary. But where were all the organizations when railines where abandoned? 95 % to inputs and 5 % to farmers. No wonder there is a problem! The truth is no one wants family farms. We are being squeezed out of existence Automation of primary production is coming for better or worse. !00 % input costs with all the vultures getting the carcass at every step.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Thanks for posting. Always interesting to read what Darrin has to say. Smart guy, in a field I also find fascinating, we generally come to different conclusions after seeing the same data though.

I will leave the climate crisis without comment, we've beat that horse to death.

But as to the farm income crisis. He uses the same chart you posted a while back purporting to show a farm income crisis by showing inflation adjusted gross farm income. Instead of income per farm. That is irrelevant. Of course gross income dropped as the number of farmers drops. Myself, and most farmers I know aren't experiencing an income crisis. Some who thought the commodity boom would last forever are finding out otherwise.

Many farmers, including our very own hobbyfarmer have made the decision to get off the inputs treadmill, with positive results. Nothing to argue with there.

Definitely agree that we need to close the loop on the nutrient cycle. Exporting nutrients in the form of low value unprocessed grain is not sustainable. Not sure how to square that with the notion that livestock need to be eliminated due to a climate crisis.

The high input model, including glyphosate has allowed the sequestration of carbon in soil and reducing fossil fuel consumption through no-till. Again, difficult to square the concept of eliminating inputs, while also reducing fossil fuel usage, and increase carbon in our soils. I am not yet aware of a successful continuous no-till organic operation anywhere, let alone in a growing zone similar to western Canada. I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong on that though.

Will avoid the electric vs. diesel debate all over again. I'd be happy to never have to own or operate an infernal combustion engine again if the technology was competitive. But as of today, in most regions, the electric or fuel cell powered tractors and farm yards will be fossil fuel powered at the source, and according to the green crowd, hydro and biofuels are not green and need to be eliminated.

Definitely if we are to be concerned about GHG emissions, the current transportation arrangement is the worst of all worlds. He has some good points there.

Will finish reading later.

[grassfarmer]

He uses the same chart you posted a while back purporting to show a farm income crisis by showing inflation adjusted gross farm income. Instead of income per farm. That is irrelevant. Of course gross income dropped as the number of farmers drops.

I don't see your problem with the graphic. It shows the trend across the sector as a whole. Why should it show income per farm? Why should net income drop as the number of farmers drop? - isn't the theory that as all the small inefficient ones are forced out of business their land is swallowed up by larger more successful neighbours shouldn't net farm income as a % of gross farm revenue increase?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

I don't see your problem with the graphic. It shows the trend across the sector as a whole. Why should it show income per farm? Why should net income drop as the number of farmers drop? - isn't the theory that as all the small inefficient ones are forced out of business their land is swallowed up by larger more successful neighbours shouldn't net farm income as a % of gross farm revenue increase?

Can you find an example of a business or industry where that has happened? We are in the commodity production business, where the cost of our products will trend towards the COP of the lowest cost producer, in the world. If we all expected to make the same total income as the 10 producer we have replaced on average, our COP would be so out of control that we wouldn't be selling into any foreign market. And, as farmers, right or wrong, we don't see profit, we see a surplus, and reinvest it, see the price of land as a prime example.

[bucket]

Can you find an example of a business or industry where that has happened? We are in the commodity production business, where the cost of our products will trend towards the COP of the lowest cost producer, in the world. If we all expected to make the same total income as the 10 producer we have replaced on average, our COP would be so out of control that we wouldn't be selling into any foreign market. And, as farmers, right or wrong, we don't see profit, we see a surplus, and reinvest it, see the price of land as a prime example.

A couple comments.....where does the COP end in different countries that we compete against?


If Russia enacts the equivalent of the old crow rate and invests in infrastructure for their producers whereas Canadian producers pick up the tab.....there might be another uncompetetive reason why we are not selling into some foreign markets. ...other than the dumbass in Ottawa....


Depends on where the COP ends and how that changes the ROI depending on what part of the works a farmer is in. ....

Russia IMHO has accepted that agriculture can help their economy....

Canada.... even today... with the premiers meeting and 2 billion in the field ....has turned their back on western Canadian agriculture....

With 4 of the premier's major support coming from rural Canada....

[furrowtickler]

Has Greta been to India yet ????
Maybe her fancy boat might get a dirty Hull there ?? Just wondering.....


Probably too busy scolding Canada about our 1.6% devastating contribution to CO2 .....

Did she scold Vancouver and Montreal for dumping millions of litters of raw sewage into rivers and oceans ?? Can’t recall that either .

[furrowtickler]

Also not much said about other ocean pollution .... just oil is bad , oil is bad ... CO2 is bad blah blah blah ..
meanwhile in real environmental threats ...


Also NASA confirms that the world is becoming greener as CO2 levels get back to decent levels for prolific plant life .
Just think , pot plants can grow bigger and better in our new world now 👍👍.
Fact ..... green houses have to pump in CO2 ... the building block of life , to maintain healthy plant growth ..... who woulda thought eh ????

[AlbertaFarmer5]

A couple comments.....where does the COP end in different countries that we compete against?


If Russia enacts the equivalent of the old crow rate and invests in infrastructure for their producers whereas Canadian producers pick up the tab.....there might be another uncompetetive reason why we are not selling into some foreign markets. ...other than the dumbass in Ottawa....


Depends on where the COP ends and how that changes the ROI depending on what part of the works a farmer is in. ....

Russia IMHO has accepted that agriculture can help their economy....

Canada.... even today... with the premiers meeting and 2 billion in the field ....has turned their back on western Canadian agriculture....

With 4 of the premier's major support coming from rural Canada....

But we can't do a thing about the COP of our competitors, or how much more of their COP is subsidised by governments, or how many other subsidies they receive. And expecting the federal government to notice or care about us after the recent election where we collectively told them to go to ****, is worse than futile.

Might as well concentrate on what we can do from within. Qualman definitely has some ideas, and a good place to start a conversation. Too bad he has them all mixed in with solving a climate crisis, and all of the solutions he offers to that are only going to add to our COP.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Furrowtickler, I always appreciate your ability to bring these things back to reality, and put into context. But I think we've had enough climate crisis threads lately, can we keep this one on track and look at the solutions he offers? Unfortunate that he tangled them all up together, making it more difficult to take some of them seriously.

[malleefarmer]

Waded my way though it.

Not exactly correct term but article almost suggests law of diminishing returns with high input farmers, to me that doesn’t actually change with oR without climate change , they will always be high medium and low input farmer whatever the climate situation.

The issue of prices received was basically glossed over. If wheat had been 8 to 10 bucks a bushel ove last three years the paper probably wouldn’t have been written.

Consumers want cheap food be it flour meat veg whatever.

I myself have swung to a more medium input scenario and gone back to mixed farming but I do not demonise high input farmers at all but the article questioned that system not sure they have the right to criticise one farming system ove another that’s to simplistic an argument and will actually cause division amongst farmers.

That’s my take, there’s a mountain of grain in the world lesser counties producing way more than 10 years ago so go8ng foward prices are gonna be the main impediment at times. Sure drought helps prices but no one really wants that.

World wide problem. Machinery costs don’t get a mention either combination of all factors.

Was a bit tonight on tv about drought in Australia and how little support we get, when compared to French farmers was mind boggling govt programmes fo French and ps I’m not advocating that. As that a small part of grain surplus they just keep producing they know the6 will get propped up regardless of yields and o price and other issues

Cheers

[chuckChuck]

Farmers can't do much about world supply and demand and commodity prices unless they embrace supply management or some form of government intervention in the marketplace.

Neither fit under the banner of the 'free" market.

Many farmers seem content to let the "free" market decide the cost of their inputs and the price of their commodities and then rely on government support and subsidies.

The reality is most input companies and grain companies will charge what the market will bear. In many cases there is little real competition and large multinationals have the power to impose their will on farmers.

There are some options for farmers to reduce costs which can improve net incomes.

The biggest mistake has been to let the seed and chemical companies increase their control of the seed supply and the agronomy that goes with it.

Farmers need independent farmer driven research, development and delivery of seed and agronomy that is based on a system designs that maximize farmers returns and not the input sector.

Farmers also should have kept control of the grain handling and grain trading business as much as possible. The multinational grain companies have no loyalty to farmers or any particular country. Their main job is make sure their shareholders make money not farmers.

[bucket]

Farmers also should have kept control of the grain handling and grain trading business as much as possible. The multinational grain companies have no loyalty to farmers or any particular country. Their main job is make sure their shareholders make money not farmers.

Do not say that out loud to a WCWGA member.....you will be called a socialist instantly...like a string on the back of those dolls of the 70s and guess who is pulling the string....the companies that are essentially monopolies....wonder if the WCWGA realizes they are controlled/sponsored by monopolies????

[farmaholic]

Do not say that out loud to a WCWGA member.....you will be called a socialist instantly...like a string on the back of those dolls of the 70s

How is that different than being a puppet with Industry's hand up someone's ass making their lips move?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Farmers can't do much about world supply and demand and commodity prices unless they embrace supply management or some form of government intervention in the marketplace.

??? How does supply management in one country affect world supply and demand and commodity price? Unless you propose to unite farmers the world over to join in supply management, Canadian farmers alone, can only lose all export markets to cheaper alternatives by embracing supply management. We don't exist in a vacuum.

If the goal is to only produce as much as we consume within the country, and idle the vast majority of Canadian farmland, then SM is an excellent solution.