We Could Power and Heat all of Western Canada's homes on Straw.

[WiltonRanch]

Done a bit more reading on this and wondered how feasible it would be to completely power a grain drying system on straw gas? Power a generator to run electric motors and run the burner.

[bucket]

Sorry, but could we then not make syngas from coal?

Or refinery coke.....????
I thought there was talk of using it?

[FarmJunkie]

Great ideas boys but like anything that gets started it’s the initial setup that’s the killer. Need deep pockets or government backing to keeping it rolling through the first rough spot. That’s usually about the time the money runs out or government abandons u.

[jazz]

You need to understand the electrical grid in context of these ideas. To be a consistant power source it has to be created from a few central locations where straw would have to be hauled to. Once you factor the transport cost in, it becomes uneconomical.

So the alternative is a bunch of producers with their own systems feeding the grid. Can you imagine trying to balance the grid with hundreds of guys burning bales whenever they feel like it?

You are taking a reliable grid backed with reliable fuel in a few locations, coal, nat gas, hydro and risking it with intermittent loads. Maybe that works in California but not here.

The best use for a waste fuel like that is to use it locally to create a higher value product. Some guy by NB was using flax straw to heat his greenhouse.

[Zephyr]

You need to understand the electrical grid in context of these ideas. To be a consistant power source it has to be created from a few central locations where straw would have to be hauled to. Once you factor the transport cost in, it becomes uneconomical.

So the alternative is a bunch of producers with their own systems feeding the grid. Can you imagine trying to balance the grid with hundreds of guys burning bales whenever they feel like it?

You are taking a reliable grid backed with reliable fuel in a few locations, coal, nat gas, hydro and risking it with intermittent loads. Maybe that works in California but not here.

The best use for a waste fuel like that is to use it locally to create a higher value product. Some guy by NB was using flax straw to heat his greenhouse.

Biomass is reliable, 24/7/365 generation.


You do need to understand power grids... The way they are being designed today, and the way changes are designed into them is to allow for distributed loads and distributed access.

Just like CoGen stations, the utility regulates how much energy is fed into the grid, and these fully automated systems burn / produce only as much energy as demand requires.

[jazz]

Biomass is reliable, 24/7/365 generation.

We already have our RM just about ready to ban flax straw burning. The public tolerate it because its just for a few weeks of the year.

I don't know what they would think about some major central locations with hundreds of bales being burned every day or every farm with its own biogas facility. When the temp dropped to -30 the other day, a low level inversion was created here in S Sask and anything creating steam or smoke was stuck close to the ground. Imagine the backlash of every farm burning biomass during those periods.

A handful of flax straw facilities is possible because its being burned already and its not a large acreage crop like wheat. Flax straw takes years to break down naturally and has little nutrient value. Used to be one in Weyburn taking straw to make cigarette papers but they were so fussy about the flax straw and you had to haul it to them. Guys just said f it and burned it or switched to canola.

You would have to sell the public on the carbon neutral aspects of it.

[Zephyr]

We already have our RM just about ready to ban flax straw burning. The public tolerate it because its just for a few weeks of the year.

I don't know what they would think about some major central locations with hundreds of bales being burned every day or every farm with its own biogas facility. When the temp dropped to -30 the other day, a low level inversion was created here in S Sask and anything creating steam or smoke was stuck close to the ground. Imagine the backlash of every farm burning biomass during those periods.

A handful of flax straw facilities is possible because its being burned already and its not a large acreage crop like wheat. Flax straw takes years to break down naturally and has little nutrient value. Used to be one in Weyburn taking straw to make cigarette papers but they were so fussy about the flax straw and you had to haul it to them. Guys just said f it and burned it or switched to canola.

You would have to sell the public on the carbon neutral aspects of it.

You really dont get it.


Gassifiers don't smoke. They exceed EPA standards and EU emission standards.

The exhaust from biomass syngas units is the same as from a natural gas generation plant.


Look at Frohling pellet burners. They are condensing... Vent the same way as a high efficiency gas furnace.

[blackpowder]

Heating all of Western Canada with straw eh??

[jazz]

Still doesnt address the real issues;

1. Lack of evidence of the problem
2. Miniscule contribution by Canada of said problem.
3. Zero efforts by 90% of the worlds countries toward said problem.
4. Question of whether Canada is a problem at all (already carbon neutral)
5. Subtitution of efficient cost effective technology with questionable replacements that have offloaded their economics onto other industries and failing to account for the necessary back up for the technology. Discounting the CO2 produced from transition to the technology like windmills using more CO2 to make than they will offset in their life time.
6. Using fuzzy economics to justify such a technology while ignoring others already having an effect, ie carbon sequestration.
7. Putting resources into questionable temporary tech instead of a moonshot for the real game changer, fusion.
8. Totally ignoring solutions right in front of your face, ie nuclear
9. And offloading the disruptive change onto one and only one industry; energy production, while other industries get a pass like transportation, globalization, aviation, jet setting PMs.
10. Diverting resources from real problems.

[WiltonRanch]

No disagreement with you on yours points here Jazz. Though this is an interesting discussion about a potential energy source we have at hand. I don’t give 2 shits whether it comes to be but this has more potential and reliability than wind or solar, and ffs you can build a working system yourself. I don’t think logistics lend itself to be a huge thing but if it could scale to an individual farm or small community economically then why not. I know it looks silly when we’re sitting here with abundant lng but probably a lot more reliable than digging trenches and holes like a gopher for geothermal. I guess my thoughts are and it’s like burning wood you’re not dependent on “the man” but “the man” is okay when you get old and don’t want the bother.

[Zephyr]

Still doesnt address the real issues;

1. Lack of evidence of the problem
2. Miniscule contribution by Canada of said problem.
3. Zero efforts by 90% of the worlds countries toward said problem.
4. Question of whether Canada is a problem at all (already carbon neutral)
5. Subtitution of efficient cost effective technology with questionable replacements that have offloaded their economics onto other industries and failing to account for the necessary back up for the technology. Discounting the CO2 produced from transition to the technology like windmills using more CO2 to make than they will offset in their life time.
6. Using fuzzy economics to justify such a technology while ignoring others already having an effect, ie carbon sequestration.
7. Putting resources into questionable temporary tech instead of a moonshot for the real game changer, fusion.
8. Totally ignoring solutions right in front of your face, ie nuclear
9. And offloading the disruptive change onto one and only one industry; energy production, while other industries get a pass like transportation, globalization, aviation, jet setting PMs.
10. Diverting resources from real problems.

"I hate anything but gas and coal. I will forever live in the world of fossil fuels. I will never change. I don't care. I'll stick my head in the sand."

That's you, Jazz.


Yet you bitch about a carbon tax.

I just gave you a completely viable, cost effective solution.


Do not bitch about the carbon tax again. Don't like it, adapt.

The strong survive. The weak die.

[WiltonRanch]

Zephyr where could I find out info on using straw for gasification. Lots of information using wood. I’d just like to see what the setup entails for interest sake. Things like that intrigue me.

[Zephyr]

http://www.volund.dk/Biomass_energy/Technologies/Combustion/Straw_and_stalks

For instance. I should tske photos of ours.

[woodland]

The bio char that’s produced ........ what form does it come out and how to you handle it. I know folks closer to whitecourt that get wood ash from the cogen plant at pulp mill for free and it comes out in a thick slurry that they stockpile in fields and then spread with manure spreaders later.

Pictures are worth a thousand words ......... especially with a small caption if required. 😉

[LEP]

Yes it is possible, but last I checked there is alot of cost and effort to bale and transport straw. After last fall can you imagine throwing in the operation of baling all the straw?

How well does wet snow covered straw burn?