Open Challenge....Verifying claims with actual Grid Tie energy production.

[oneoff]

Take this post as a challenge to prove various firmly held beliefs about renewable energy projects in Canada.

Let your Grid Tie smart meter (or second best; the honest reading of your bidirectional Utility meter) speak for itself. Report your usage and production of renewable solar/wind/carbon neutral/low impact hydro on any irregular basis to this thread for the next week or so (or longer). Any evidence of exaggeration can be proven by a picture showing the meter reading. "Delivered" and "received" Kwh add useful information.
The object is not to identify anyone; but to provide real data (based on the real world actual production) which can be used to prove or refute past claims.

I'll go first.
Net Metering Project 1....6000 watt Inverter Flare gas cogeneration project ....commissioned first week of July 2020 Digital display 4 Kwh used to yesterday... 22160 Kwh injected into grid to date of yesterday afternoon...... meter read yesterday about 2:00pm . Note new meter installed in July with zero KWH on both channels.... Single phase Inverter deliberately set below continuous rating of 5500 watt output; instead of 6000 max output continuous rating. Pilot project with unknown operating temperature rise etc. Temp rise to less than 100 degree F with fan cooling so should be no issue if output raised almost 10%; but no incentive to change with todays contract.

Net Metering Project #2 Three similar 6000 watt inverter to above; but in a three phase configuration. Actual "smart" meter reading at 4:30 am this morning....212 Kwh used to date from grid...3591Kwh produced/exported since about Nov 25/2020. Inverter produce about 5585 watts continuous; except for one phase set at 1500 watts max (isolation transformer limitation which will be corrected). Note 207Kwh of 212 used came fro usage prior to commissioning new smart meter installed a few weeks previous to inverter(s) startup

From now on I will only report the "rec" and "del" as read from the appropriate meter.

Seeing as how every Utility is securely sealed to prevent tampering...we can all rely on everyone to be honest; and any doubt can be challenged by producing an appropriate photo evidence that doesn't have to disclose any persoonal identification. All that should be of interest is how much electrical energy (if anything) REALLY ever was "rec"eived and "del"ivered .
Who would bet that my two Grid tie commissioned project aren't producing more energy into maybe some other provinces grid...than all the other renewable projects that will get reported to this forum.

Let the challenge begin. Time to put up

[chuckChuck]

There is one flaw in your plan to use the bi-directional meter to measure production and consumption in net metering:

7.1.BI-DIRECTIONAL METERThe bi-directional meter displays the power delivered (dEL) by SaskPower to you and the excess power received (rEC) by SaskPower from your generation system. The power generated by your system is used by your building first. This power will not be recorded on the bi-directional meter, or displayed on your power bill, because it is used before it reaches the SaskPower grid. •If, at any time, your system generates more power than you are using, the power will be sent to the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as received (rEC) by SaskPower. •If, at any time, your system generates less power than you are using, power will be taken from the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as delivered (dEL) by SaskPower.

My inverters have a record of production so that would be a better source of total production over any time period. I will take a look.

But the judges have already declared a winner. Your gas fired co generation running 90% of the time wins over intermittent solar in terms of reliable sustained total production. But we already knew that.

Lets start another challenge and look at carbon emissions per kwh? I thought you might like to look at that too. But that will be a bit more complicated to quantify. But the judges have already declared a winner. Solar.

So why are you choosing Dec 19 for the start of this comparison of net metering systems? All us solar system owners want to compare system output on June 21st! LOL

Actually Sunny days in late winter early spring are very good days to compare as well, with all that reflected light energy.

[AllisWD45]

There is one flaw in your plan to use the bi-directional meter to measure production and consumption in net metering:

7.1.BI-DIRECTIONAL METERThe bi-directional meter displays the power delivered (dEL) by SaskPower to you and the excess power received (rEC) by SaskPower from your generation system. The power generated by your system is used by your building first. This power will not be recorded on the bi-directional meter, or displayed on your power bill, because it is used before it reaches the SaskPower grid. •If, at any time, your system generates more power than you are using, the power will be sent to the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as received (rEC) by SaskPower. •If, at any time, your system generates less power than you are using, power will be taken from the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as delivered (dEL) by SaskPower.

Are you planning to join the challenge?

[oneoff]

There is one flaw in your plan to use the bi-directional meter to measure production and consumption in net metering:

7.1.BI-DIRECTIONAL METERThe bi-directional meter displays the power delivered (dEL) by SaskPower to you and the excess power received (rEC) by SaskPower from your generation system. The power generated by your system is used by your building first. This power will not be recorded on the bi-directional meter, or displayed on your power bill, because it is used before it reaches the SaskPower grid. •If, at any time, your system generates more power than you are using, the power will be sent to the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as received (rEC) by SaskPower. •If, at any time, your system generates less power than you are using, power will be taken from the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as delivered (dEL) by SaskPower.

My inverters have a record of production so that would be a better source of total production over any time period. I will take a look.

But the judges have already declared a winner. Your gas fired co generation running 90% of the time wins over intermittent solar in terms of reliable sustained total production. But we already knew that.

So why are you choosing Dec 19 for the start of this comparison of net metering systems? All us solar system owners want to compare system output on June 21st! LOL

The first fake news has arrived. It is not a flaw that especially this time of year that I suspect your "del" reading is not climbing very fast. This challenge was designed to put all forms of renewable generation on the same fair foundation. Report your readings today ((or soon) and we will see how your readings on June 21 too. The reason I chose the start date is meaning less. Lets agree to discard figures and restart the challenge at your exact time. But refusing to give your current meter readings (at your earliest convenience) means that starting on your date and continuing for a one year cycle is likely to yield the same results as if you took up a valid experiment as of today.

On further thought I admit that starting at 4:30 this morning was an unfair advantage to a system that has closer to 99.9 % uptime compared to your incorrect 90% figure. That too will be conclusively proven by future updates on meter readings; and by iterpolating between readins as a double check.

But to make this totally fair I'm now going to check the smart meter (which coincidentally I found out may be able to be checked online through the SaskPower smart meter aaccount.

Be back in a couple minutes with the meter reading illuminated under the mid morning broken clouds.....................................and at 9:47 and some seconds the smart meter said "del"4 and "rec" 3655. There is no multiplier involved. Now this challenge has been fairly reset and no reason for other red herrings.


Please enter the challenge and not give up so easily. My worry is that the genset has worked so well for 29860.2 hrs that there's another water pump bearing failure coming before spring. But throwing a transfer switch will bring the standby genset online. If interested I could provide full details; but its about time for others to participate in an information exchanging process.


We'd all benefit you know.

[chuckChuck]

We all know solar production is relatively low at this time of year. Short days, low sun angle. It won't replace the grid source obviously. And I never said it would.

Its not "fake news" to explain how net meters work unless you believe Saskpower's net meters are lying.

The reality is the net meters don't record all the electricity I produce and use. That's a fact.

What they do record is the surplus electricity I produce and the Saskpower electricity I consume when the solar system is not producing or not producing enough.

So reading the net meter does not tell you the amount of my output, or my total usage at any given point in time. If I was using 20,000 watts at midday and my production was balanced with my usage the meter wouldn't move. So what did the meter tell you about how much solar generation I have? Nothing. You need to read the output from the inverters which is what I will do.

A better measure is the annual average production of a 25kw system. At my location this is approximately 35,000 kwh. Carbon emission free.

[oneoff]

I'm somewhat embarrassed to say this; but there should be an opportunity to present arguments before the judges declare winners.

For instance; if paid a minimum wage and charges made for only inspection fees; CSA equivalent certification cost of inverters; fuel and travel; electricians; having one line drawings prepared by qualified professionals; and little allowances made for frustrations and red tape and delays and what seemed at times to be a total lack of support etc.etc.....I am confident that the total actual costs will be paid out in 7.6 years (assuming no natural catastrophes.)
But that would not be an true statement. If the Department of the Environment (who funds grandfathered Net Metering projects applied for and completed within the original program application period (which in this case has been confirmed and cheque is expected shortly)........this project will not be in the red the minute after that payment is received; and there will be enough money to put back into some auction purchases to facilitate expansion into bigger and more impressive electrical generation projects.


Things like DC transmission to inverters at remote locations 40% further away than any 3 phase AC project with the same transmission losses. Or cooperating with known oil companies to scale this beyond Net Metering, and maybe educating those who haven't taken the time to learn everything about what is being discussed.

But to dampen enthusiasm needlessly !!!! (by tying comments to how much CO2 is produced compared to solar could be designed to be demoralizing). First challenge is to admit that solar (or anything imaginable) typically has its own set of problems which someone else could address first.
Contemplate that not one molecule more CO2 is being produced compared to flaring for no productive use. Factor in that instead of venting this CH4 gas; which is reportedly some 25 times more potent a greenhouse gas than using combustion; whatever method employed...there are substantial environmental benefits in case where what still are productive infrastructure that is one down hole failure away from draining the tanks and suspending the well probably permanently.

Those are not my words; and there will never be municipal taxes paid again; and scarce resources will be used to abandon a viable potential asset. It seems like this is what Sask and most Sask people tend to do best.

Being an obstructionist; whilst refusing to admit (or at very least minimizing what you still completely rely on) only shows that a person doesn't know all that a person thinks they know.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

A better measure is the annual average production of a 25kw system. At my location this is approximately 35,000 kwh. Carbon emission free.

Thanks for the numbers. So that works out to just under 16% of the nameplate capacity.

Can you explain how that is saving CO2 emissions when the natural gas power plants that are backing up the intermittent and unreliable solar output are still running 100% of the time as spinning reserve waiting for your solar to stop producing without notice. Which it spends much more time doing than it does producing. 16%, that is not a typo. So on average, it produces at full capacity for 3 hours and 50 miutes per day.

[Guest]

Are you planning to join the challenge?

apparently not

[chuckChuck]

From my inverters:
37774 kwh for the year. Slightly better than the average probably because of a sunny dry fall.

[Guest]

hey one-off, can you enlighten me ?
i am slow sometimes
how does this work, have you got a gen set hooked to an oil co gas well flare ?
it might help chuck understand also ?