Open Challenge....Verifying claims with actual Grid Tie energy production.

[oneoff]

"Del"ivered reading still at 212Kwh this morning. "Rec" climbed aexpected to 4154 Kwh in 23 hrs and 15 minutes approx.

Never have mentioned (or since checked the reading) on the other 5580 some watt continuous grid tied connection but not there's zero reason to woorry that another 140 odd Kwh a day is etched into the liquid crystal display.

There are a few additioonal comments that may be of interest to at least a few people.; such as

Multiple transformerless inverters; whether connected to a three phase grid tie; or operated in parallel on single phase have to have some isolation transformers. To be specific; one less transformer than the number of inverters connected to each meter if the utility grid is in wye (also known as Y or Star transformer configuration)...Also it appeard that a system such as 120/208V 3 phase Delta ctransformer configuration needs an isolation transformer on each one of the individual phase inverters. Those small transformers need to be at least the size of the individual inverter output. And they suck up a little less than 10% of the inverter output that doesn't reach the grid or get metered by the utility. Thats one of the reasons why forced changing the rules on this challenge from the request for utility grid meterreasons was just complicating analysis somewhat.

It also points out that any raw solar inverter readings aren't totally accurate for other reasons. For example chuck's (or anyone else's excess power is subject to voltage drops in wiring runs (which can be expressed as heat losses) and also inevitable voltage rise to push energy into the grid in the first place. Hint renewable and "Carbon Neutral" production should be as close to the utility grid as possible or your 25 kw (particularly into single phase is going to be curtailed substantially. And I'll bet that it isn't now as easy to get 25 KW into a single phase transformer when a 200 amp 3 phase application was chopped down to 18KW total due to inadequate secondary wire installed previously by the Utility. And I do know what a fact is; don't routinely exaggererate or deliberately mislead anyone (often)....Nor have I ever used LOL.

Maybe this looks mean; but I'm going to point out that Utilities are learning too.. You look at the newest Net Metering Guidelines from Sask Power and close examination will show that 4 or 5 little clauses are now there that no one had contemplated that pertain directly to power producers of all sorts, and some more specifically. Not deal breakers; but proof through documentation you have rights to use the sun or waste product. On the other hand the Carbon Neutral issue raised by chuck is debunked and Justin doesn't have any jurisdiction except through a chuck type firmly held belief that you can't let the oil in the West be used to advantage when his Eastern voters ; through no fault of their own" weren't """"""""LUCKY"""""""""
Now I'm really into this; it worth mentioning that raising the Carbon Tax to $170 a ton (for a start) is going to affect Western Canada more than most other areas. Do'nt get too complacent about farmers being "exempt" from at least 38 cents a liter on their diesel usage. And also don't forget the 5 % GST on Carbon Tax. That all could change when the argument that ALL diesel fuel produces the same CO2.

That reminds oneself about how generous and entitled are that farmers get electricity supplied at less than fair prices. Lets hope that piss poor unpproven argument does ever get repeated any more times than we've all heard from the existing source(s).

For some reason a person doesn't feel like they have "won" anything. God i distrust collaborators.....deniers and those who hold firmly held beliefs and those who won't even agree on a few basic pricincples upon which future reasonable debate can be based

[oneoff]

Here's data that someone else can double check to verify the Sask Power reading reported over the past days Its raw year to date production of three wind nverters connected to each of phases of the 120/208V grid. As mentioned in previous post there are isolation transformers because the manufacturers make them with " without galvanic isolation"...all to increase efficiency reduce inverter weight;cost etc etc. which is why certain installations require the isolation transformers or the inverter will fail to connect to the grid. That only means thing are working exactly as they should. Inverter three is currently set to 1500 watt output because there isn't a suitable isolation transformer on hand. That will change without fanfare and a one figure input into a "wind table" in the 6000 watt inverter.

And that little detail is the most significant in anything that has been said on any response so far.the

On its own; that one change to a 6 KW isolation transformer(from a 1.5 Kw transformer) will put as much electrical energy into the grid as 25KW of solar panels operating for the same time period. Any connections drawn to other people statements are 100% intentional.

I should repeat that about another 14 times for some people; but what effect would it have. Why must the obvious be used to confuse the real issues and problems


Kwh Prod'n
Date Time Inv#1 6000 Watt Inv#2 6000Watt Inv#3 6000Watt
set at 5500W set at 5500W set at 1500W
Dec 17 5:00am 2962 374 552
Dec 17 12:00pm 3011 423 566
Dec18 5:00am 3094 507 589
Dec 19 4:30am 3221 634 626
Dec19 4:40pm 3291 704 646
Dec 20 5:00am 3356 769 661
Dec 21 4:30am 3483 807 701

Let the data speak for itself and the significance of important information not allowed to be lost; deliberately distracted or misconstrued.

[chuckChuck]

Congratulations oneoff you won the production challenge. But the judges declared this many posts ago.

Why not hook up a wireless data logger on and post your production results on a website so all can enjoy daily, hourly reports at will?

I decided after an initial few weeks of watching production on my solar inverters in year one that it wasn't all that interesting. But each to their own.

As we all know solar isn't going to replace baseloads like hydro or natural gas. Solar has always been intermittent and supplemental production, that doesn't produce much in December or January. So no new news here.

When solar is producing electricity it is according to the IEA one of the cheapest generation source in many places in the world.

And according to the IEA and Bloomberg, investment in renewables around the world will continue in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

But don't let this stop you from telling us how bad solar is and how great your project is. Sometimes we all need something to cheer ourselves up.

Have a great winter solstice day!

[oneoff]

As a mutual friend once said "Talk about missing the point"[/U]

I have never said that solar can't produce energy at some times. During those intermittent periods; some of which can be predicted with 100% certainty; and all the rest of the time ; with poor certainty; one should not ever be able to advocate that it automatically earns a place in the electrical grid.

Same as: To attack conventional farming on basis of contaminated food; without proof organic food is "safer" or overall less dangerous

Or: To disparage fossil fuels when few could handle farming on a scale anyone now considers viable and would be even more than a challenged with a horse or wife hooked to a plow. To somehow be OK with avoidance of farmers from paying a carbon tax on diesel when you rely on tillage or promoting glyphosate banning when 1/3 a liter should have done the job of wearing out cultivator shovels is to ignore some serious CO2 production savings.

Or: While opening up old wounds To lead forces to maintain CWB control on farmers in "designated regions" . And its not necessarily the concept of the CWB; but its practices; and the belief that selfiish of those who were and I hope also are able to store grain. Ahhh! maybe delete that last paragrapg if the preceeding paragraphs aren't valid.

And here's a setup question for the audience (that is a way too small). You'll miss something if you quit reading now.....

A 25Kw solar setup properly grid tied admittedly produces 4 Kw of electrical energy (on average over a year). Admittedly; with an increase to triple sunlight hours per day (or maybe solar cells developed to also capture moonlight or mirrors in space; or magical sand that activated solar cells for long periods etc). Only examples and sarcasm meant to be included; any such an advances would be game changing and applauded. Nothing even required to the core 25KW infrastructure already installed. No CSA recertifation needed on the existiing equipment.

Now stick with me...there is something that will impress everyone.

Except for the price of a lottery ticket; all the exact same assumptions for an approved grid tied 3 phase project that no one can see they'd ever have because they don't have the oil company; the suitable gas supply; the patience and /or recognize the significance of CO2 taxes or the current laws and regulations that are required to be abided by to participate in electrical generation.

The flare gas data already provided shows that the appoved Inverter#3 has had to be derated to 1500Watts all because of the current lack of a 6Kw isolation transformer ( a 11.5 transformer currently in service.

Thats 4Kw loss of production (whoa whoa thats as much as any 25KW solar array can in today's real world produce. And that increased production will continue for the life of the project (hopefully some decades)r

CAN YOU GUESS WHAT IS REQUIRED TO INCREASE THE SYSTEM OUTPUT TO WHAT THE FLARE GAS PROJECT IS DESIGNED; APPROVED AND OTHERWISE CAPABLE OF PRODUCING CONTINUOUSLY

Well would youbelieve the answer is 15 minutes of an electrician's time; 6 reusable Marr Connectors; it's 10 seconds of a ten year old computer whiz kid to input the number 5500W ito repce the 1500W parammeter in the inverter configuration; press send (kid already had that done and from 1 to 300 seconds later there is an extra 4 Kw generating capacity. No CSA recertification required; system operating as the iinterconnection agreement specifies.

No here is where the rest of the audience might decide to join back in and begin to see that this is something they could participate in.

Individuals may wisely decide to not follow other people's steps. There are other ways to accomplish what both chuck and I have done. Such as: There is a Small Power Producers Program. They sell renewable and Carbon Neutral Power to the utility. The partners and shareholders and investors can be YOU. There are hoops to jump through and it depends if you are in the Saskatoon Light and Power Area or the rest of the grid. I've learned that the 15 KW (parallel to Sask Power Small Power producer 100Kw nameplate capacity) and their 11 cent per KWH price for purchased power seems more lucrative than Sask Powers 7 cent rate ( Note: print the Sask Power 4 tier program, bidding options and fine but the point is that you learn things from being prompted and prodded by investigating what may be someone else's firmly held belief.

What counts are the real facts, data and rules of the day.
Most of you will be able to relate to this game changing conclusion.which I assure you is coming.; especially if you are addicted to auction sales. But one other point will be seen to be even most important.


If you happened to live across the municipal road allowance from a flare gas generation site........and you had a spare aeration extension cord (preferably with a visible CSA stamp (and better yet if it was underground rated cable) and there was an auction sale bargain 6kw transformer (as in $5 or so) sitting idly in the seacan; and if you had the necessary connection to RM Council which won't provide minutes (which arguable tell nothing more than the paper they are printed on; include no attachments or bylaws and certainly no explanation of information on which the decision was based...but I digress).....
Now where was this story headed? Thoughrts now back in order


Necessary CSA sticker found on someone's Auction sale Five dollar transformer; computer kid all lined up to show off; electrician flagged down whilst going by on road; excited LONG TIME DAMN GOOD NEIGHBOR SOCIALLY DISTANCED: MASK ON (standing on his own land across road of course.

Just for fun pick that apart with purpose to make sure that no one ever tries it.

Those who know me realize it hard to make me bet or gamble. But why wouldn't that be a win-win-win-win-win situation.

Only thing that would often become a challenge is finding the good neighbor.
.

[Guest]

wow chuck that is a massive power bill you have there !!!!!
we are running 2 shops, grain dryer , fans , etc. , ours runs at half that yearly
mind you we have done a lot over the years to conserve energy , LED lights the biggest thing . i find timers really help also , did you know it costs $5-6 day to plug a block heater in . $25-35 a day for a fan . dryers are very cheap compared to those power eating fans

[oneoff]

I damn near lost that last post because agriville detected it was too long when the previous contributors words were requoted.. That would have been the end of single finger typing

But without some outside comment there will be no further updates as there is nothing further to be gained.

I learned many things. Thanks for the hints about the Brooks solar data site. A person could have just used that instead of the futile effort to get any requested data from any agriville solar producers. Either too timid or no wish to be completely honest; or could be a reflection of indeed how minisicule a part solar can and does contribute to grid energy infrastructure and management that we all rely on.

Take a look at Saskatoon Solar demonstration site. 33Kw of solar array; real time data so its the scale of size that a individual producer might contemplate. From Brooks and Saskatoon its pretty clear that no matter what the size of the project (and at this time of year); nothing even wakes up before 10:00am and all shut down before 4 pm. An hour after waking up and an hour before shutting down you might power some light bulbs and for 15 minutes each day maybe there was considerably more output..

Lets still hear further developments because everyone needs to benefit to maintain the interest. What we need is 100% capacity of reliable energy 100% of time. All other intermittent supplies and associated solutions need to prove their worth (of which any environmental benefit is only one factor and not the other way around where we will be totally fh***ked with an ill conceived too rapid changeover affecting agricultural sector; fossil and natural gas production; or anything else that may become the critical mass issue of the day.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Thanks for all the effort you put into educating us on this issue. Your audience is larger than one, and I for one will refer back to this thread as required.

As far as the claim that unreliable production can be predicted ahead of time, have a look at this 30 day wind generation chart and how many times per day production goes from almost zero to some random positive value. And compare that to the granularity of any known weather forecast.

I can't even guess what the big flat area at mid capacity is, but probably infilling from lack of data?

Image not loading through this computer, try the link instead:
https://www.dispatcho.app/live/CRE3?r=2592000 https://www.dispatcho.app/live/CRE3?r=2592000

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Maybe it boils down to a solar system (particularly the old granndfathered contract no longer available) has substantial benefits for early adopters. But it comes largely at everyone else's expense.

What is also true is that this will not last. The writing is on the wall for "peak billing" and times of use variable charging of energy consumed.

Smart meters and computer billing can do that in a nanosecond....and everyone can come to terms with that eventuality.

Its also when another futile effort will be made to prove that a solar operation will be impacted multiple times more than my setup.

Oh I wish it would happen this morning while this thought is frresh in everone's mind. STORAGE COSTS COME AT EVERYONE ELSE'S EXPENSE

This is the most important take away from the entire thread.

Only question remaining, as I stated in the other thread, is will we all be forced to pay for this folly, or just those responsible for perpetrating it?

Offloading the costs of storage to everyone else only works when solar is an insignificant portion of the mix. There is no physical way around this, except to disallow anyone except the early adopters to get in on the scheme. A very simple mathematical excersice will show that to be true.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Try again.

[chuckChuck]

Where is this storage you speak of? It doesn't exist with Saskpower. Saskpower is my primary source of electricity that is available 24/7. Solar is only a supplemental system that can be used very efficiently to lower your cost of electricity substantially over the lifetime of the system.

del -60161
rec - 43963

So I am still a Saskpower customer, all be it a smaller one. If you notice on my meter readings I have received more from Saskpower than I have sold to them.

Everyone who is a Saskpower customer had or has the same opportunity to invest in their own grid tied system whether it be gas or solar. In the case of solar its going to be carbon tax free. Which could be a substantial savings in the long run in addition to the lower costs that solar will deliver.

If you are reading this thread and interested in solar or gas fired grid tied systems do your own research. Talk to several different companies, electricians, installers and owners before you make up your mind. Don't worry about all the noise and negative views from those who can't find anything positive to say.

Good luck!