Open Challenge....Verifying claims with actual Grid Tie energy production.

[oneoff]

Take this post as a challenge to prove various firmly held beliefs about renewable energy projects in Canada.

Let your Grid Tie smart meter (or second best; the honest reading of your bidirectional Utility meter) speak for itself. Report your usage and production of renewable solar/wind/carbon neutral/low impact hydro on any irregular basis to this thread for the next week or so (or longer). Any evidence of exaggeration can be proven by a picture showing the meter reading. "Delivered" and "received" Kwh add useful information.
The object is not to identify anyone; but to provide real data (based on the real world actual production) which can be used to prove or refute past claims.

I'll go first.
Net Metering Project 1....6000 watt Inverter Flare gas cogeneration project ....commissioned first week of July 2020 Digital display 4 Kwh used to yesterday... 22160 Kwh injected into grid to date of yesterday afternoon...... meter read yesterday about 2:00pm . Note new meter installed in July with zero KWH on both channels.... Single phase Inverter deliberately set below continuous rating of 5500 watt output; instead of 6000 max output continuous rating. Pilot project with unknown operating temperature rise etc. Temp rise to less than 100 degree F with fan cooling so should be no issue if output raised almost 10%; but no incentive to change with todays contract.

Net Metering Project #2 Three similar 6000 watt inverter to above; but in a three phase configuration. Actual "smart" meter reading at 4:30 am this morning....212 Kwh used to date from grid...3591Kwh produced/exported since about Nov 25/2020. Inverter produce about 5585 watts continuous; except for one phase set at 1500 watts max (isolation transformer limitation which will be corrected). Note 207Kwh of 212 used came fro usage prior to commissioning new smart meter installed a few weeks previous to inverter(s) startup

From now on I will only report the "rec" and "del" as read from the appropriate meter.

Seeing as how every Utility is securely sealed to prevent tampering...we can all rely on everyone to be honest; and any doubt can be challenged by producing an appropriate photo evidence that doesn't have to disclose any persoonal identification. All that should be of interest is how much electrical energy (if anything) REALLY ever was "rec"eived and "del"ivered .
Who would bet that my two Grid tie commissioned project aren't producing more energy into maybe some other provinces grid...than all the other renewable projects that will get reported to this forum.

Let the challenge begin. Time to put up

[chuckChuck]

There is one flaw in your plan to use the bi-directional meter to measure production and consumption in net metering:

7.1.BI-DIRECTIONAL METERThe bi-directional meter displays the power delivered (dEL) by SaskPower to you and the excess power received (rEC) by SaskPower from your generation system. The power generated by your system is used by your building first. This power will not be recorded on the bi-directional meter, or displayed on your power bill, because it is used before it reaches the SaskPower grid. •If, at any time, your system generates more power than you are using, the power will be sent to the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as received (rEC) by SaskPower. •If, at any time, your system generates less power than you are using, power will be taken from the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as delivered (dEL) by SaskPower.

My inverters have a record of production so that would be a better source of total production over any time period. I will take a look.

But the judges have already declared a winner. Your gas fired co generation running 90% of the time wins over intermittent solar in terms of reliable sustained total production. But we already knew that.

Lets start another challenge and look at carbon emissions per kwh? I thought you might like to look at that too. But that will be a bit more complicated to quantify. But the judges have already declared a winner. Solar.

So why are you choosing Dec 19 for the start of this comparison of net metering systems? All us solar system owners want to compare system output on June 21st! LOL

Actually Sunny days in late winter early spring are very good days to compare as well, with all that reflected light energy.

[AllisWD45]

There is one flaw in your plan to use the bi-directional meter to measure production and consumption in net metering:

7.1.BI-DIRECTIONAL METERThe bi-directional meter displays the power delivered (dEL) by SaskPower to you and the excess power received (rEC) by SaskPower from your generation system. The power generated by your system is used by your building first. This power will not be recorded on the bi-directional meter, or displayed on your power bill, because it is used before it reaches the SaskPower grid. •If, at any time, your system generates more power than you are using, the power will be sent to the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as received (rEC) by SaskPower. •If, at any time, your system generates less power than you are using, power will be taken from the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as delivered (dEL) by SaskPower.

Are you planning to join the challenge?

[oneoff]

There is one flaw in your plan to use the bi-directional meter to measure production and consumption in net metering:

7.1.BI-DIRECTIONAL METERThe bi-directional meter displays the power delivered (dEL) by SaskPower to you and the excess power received (rEC) by SaskPower from your generation system. The power generated by your system is used by your building first. This power will not be recorded on the bi-directional meter, or displayed on your power bill, because it is used before it reaches the SaskPower grid. •If, at any time, your system generates more power than you are using, the power will be sent to the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as received (rEC) by SaskPower. •If, at any time, your system generates less power than you are using, power will be taken from the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as delivered (dEL) by SaskPower.

My inverters have a record of production so that would be a better source of total production over any time period. I will take a look.

But the judges have already declared a winner. Your gas fired co generation running 90% of the time wins over intermittent solar in terms of reliable sustained total production. But we already knew that.

So why are you choosing Dec 19 for the start of this comparison of net metering systems? All us solar system owners want to compare system output on June 21st! LOL

The first fake news has arrived. It is not a flaw that especially this time of year that I suspect your "del" reading is not climbing very fast. This challenge was designed to put all forms of renewable generation on the same fair foundation. Report your readings today ((or soon) and we will see how your readings on June 21 too. The reason I chose the start date is meaning less. Lets agree to discard figures and restart the challenge at your exact time. But refusing to give your current meter readings (at your earliest convenience) means that starting on your date and continuing for a one year cycle is likely to yield the same results as if you took up a valid experiment as of today.

On further thought I admit that starting at 4:30 this morning was an unfair advantage to a system that has closer to 99.9 % uptime compared to your incorrect 90% figure. That too will be conclusively proven by future updates on meter readings; and by iterpolating between readins as a double check.

But to make this totally fair I'm now going to check the smart meter (which coincidentally I found out may be able to be checked online through the SaskPower smart meter aaccount.

Be back in a couple minutes with the meter reading illuminated under the mid morning broken clouds.....................................and at 9:47 and some seconds the smart meter said "del"4 and "rec" 3655. There is no multiplier involved. Now this challenge has been fairly reset and no reason for other red herrings.


Please enter the challenge and not give up so easily. My worry is that the genset has worked so well for 29860.2 hrs that there's another water pump bearing failure coming before spring. But throwing a transfer switch will bring the standby genset online. If interested I could provide full details; but its about time for others to participate in an information exchanging process.


We'd all benefit you know.

[chuckChuck]

We all know solar production is relatively low at this time of year. Short days, low sun angle. It won't replace the grid source obviously. And I never said it would.

Its not "fake news" to explain how net meters work unless you believe Saskpower's net meters are lying.

The reality is the net meters don't record all the electricity I produce and use. That's a fact.

What they do record is the surplus electricity I produce and the Saskpower electricity I consume when the solar system is not producing or not producing enough.

So reading the net meter does not tell you the amount of my output, or my total usage at any given point in time. If I was using 20,000 watts at midday and my production was balanced with my usage the meter wouldn't move. So what did the meter tell you about how much solar generation I have? Nothing. You need to read the output from the inverters which is what I will do.

A better measure is the annual average production of a 25kw system. At my location this is approximately 35,000 kwh. Carbon emission free.

[oneoff]

I'm somewhat embarrassed to say this; but there should be an opportunity to present arguments before the judges declare winners.

For instance; if paid a minimum wage and charges made for only inspection fees; CSA equivalent certification cost of inverters; fuel and travel; electricians; having one line drawings prepared by qualified professionals; and little allowances made for frustrations and red tape and delays and what seemed at times to be a total lack of support etc.etc.....I am confident that the total actual costs will be paid out in 7.6 years (assuming no natural catastrophes.)
But that would not be an true statement. If the Department of the Environment (who funds grandfathered Net Metering projects applied for and completed within the original program application period (which in this case has been confirmed and cheque is expected shortly)........this project will not be in the red the minute after that payment is received; and there will be enough money to put back into some auction purchases to facilitate expansion into bigger and more impressive electrical generation projects.


Things like DC transmission to inverters at remote locations 40% further away than any 3 phase AC project with the same transmission losses. Or cooperating with known oil companies to scale this beyond Net Metering, and maybe educating those who haven't taken the time to learn everything about what is being discussed.

But to dampen enthusiasm needlessly !!!! (by tying comments to how much CO2 is produced compared to solar could be designed to be demoralizing). First challenge is to admit that solar (or anything imaginable) typically has its own set of problems which someone else could address first.
Contemplate that not one molecule more CO2 is being produced compared to flaring for no productive use. Factor in that instead of venting this CH4 gas; which is reportedly some 25 times more potent a greenhouse gas than using combustion; whatever method employed...there are substantial environmental benefits in case where what still are productive infrastructure that is one down hole failure away from draining the tanks and suspending the well probably permanently.

Those are not my words; and there will never be municipal taxes paid again; and scarce resources will be used to abandon a viable potential asset. It seems like this is what Sask and most Sask people tend to do best.

Being an obstructionist; whilst refusing to admit (or at very least minimizing what you still completely rely on) only shows that a person doesn't know all that a person thinks they know.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

A better measure is the annual average production of a 25kw system. At my location this is approximately 35,000 kwh. Carbon emission free.

Thanks for the numbers. So that works out to just under 16% of the nameplate capacity.

Can you explain how that is saving CO2 emissions when the natural gas power plants that are backing up the intermittent and unreliable solar output are still running 100% of the time as spinning reserve waiting for your solar to stop producing without notice. Which it spends much more time doing than it does producing. 16%, that is not a typo. So on average, it produces at full capacity for 3 hours and 50 miutes per day.

[Guest]

Are you planning to join the challenge?

apparently not

[chuckChuck]

From my inverters:
37774 kwh for the year. Slightly better than the average probably because of a sunny dry fall.

[Guest]

hey one-off, can you enlighten me ?
i am slow sometimes
how does this work, have you got a gen set hooked to an oil co gas well flare ?
it might help chuck understand also ?

[chuckChuck]

Thanks for the numbers. So that works out to just under 16% of the nameplate capacity.

Can you explain how that is saving CO2 emissions when the natural gas power plants that are backing up the intermittent and unreliable solar output are still running 100% of the time as spinning reserve waiting for your solar to stop producing without notice. Which it spends much more time doing than it does producing. 16%, that is not a typo. So on average, it produces at full capacity for 3 hours and 50 miutes per day.

Sounds correct except that solar and wind systems don't stop without notice all the time. If you have enough of them spread out over various geographical areas then weather forecasts and conditions can be used for planning.

As far as the nameplate capacity I will trust you can do math. No surprises here, I think most solar owners already know this.

So gas plants running 100% of time? Nope they dont because they also shut down for maintenance service and rebuilds. So lets pick 85% as a guess for nameplate capacity.

And when a gas plant is running, is it running at full capacity with full fuel usage all the time? Nope. They ramp them up and down depending upon demand and what other sources are providing. I think that is one of the advantages of gas over coal. Quicker and easier to adjust output.

So how much carbon is saved when fossil plants are running anyway at some level and solar or wind are replacing fossil output? That's a very good question.

I am sure it depends on fuel type, fuel mix, generation sources and each individual utility system design and operation.

The main point is that a smart grid incorporating various forms of generation including low carbon sources that is designed and operated well will cut fossil fuel usage and carbon emissions as non carbon emitting sources provide more generation capacity. Otherwise why would Saskpower be planning to install lots of intermittent wind in a bid to reduce carbon emissions?

Isn't that the reason why Australian coal generation systems are losing money because renewables are reducing the amount of electricity they supply and can market? They are burning less coal are they not?

[oneoff]

Despite what chuck says; it is possible to fairly compare Grid tied systems as to their capabilities.

Be that as it may; it appears chuck concedes as to "losing" . What remains is a fairly reasonable claim of what will be no more than estimated INTERMITTENT 35000 Kw per year from a 25 KW array; thus an estimated average of 35000/8760 hours per year would be almost exactly 4 KW/hour. That in line with a industry average of 15 % production expectation which yields an anticipated 37500 Kw

It is also true that any grid tie inverter has built in monitoring software for both instantaneous wattage output; daily; weekly and yearly and lifetime energy records. That WOULD also suffice to enter the challenge.

But if the rules are further changed then I must note that my total energy production is not what I have originally given.

The 100 KW genset/inverter (functionally equivalent to the 25Kw solar array/inverter setup) is producing 480 V 3 phase (line to line) at a power factor of 0.8. A clamp on ammeter currently shows amps flowing in each of the three phases of 65.7A, 46.2A and 54.5A Taking an average of about 55 A and plugging this data into an online Amps to KW calculator yields a generator loading of about 36.6 kw.
Times that by close to 8760 hours in a year and you get 360540KW annual production Can't find the calculator!

With an adequately sized generator and the necessary gas supply; this electrical output can and does additionally supply aeration fans and any other connected load. That is an undeniable. It also can not be duplicated with a shining more sunlight on a 25 KW solar project.

So a marginal oil well with what was considered totally insignificant gas production is currently producing almost 10 times the average output of a 25 Kw rated solar array. And not that the 100 KW genset is stressed and not that the gas supply has been depleted nor the oil tank quit rumbling..

It still would be extremely educational for the audience of only one so far to admit to themselves (and share with the general public) the performance of the solution they would have everyone repeat.
I look forward to honest daily solar production information so we can all fairly evaluate different scenarios on an apple to apple basis of any variety that is chosen.

[jazz]

Thanks oneoff. I dont have solar but I appreciate you keeping chuck tied up in this thread. He has never posted any of his solar fantasy numbers or even any from his farm operations.

Conclusion: delusional activist

[chuckChuck]

Those are impressive numbers.

Using natural gas to generate electricity in a cogeneration system instead of seeing it lost to the atmosphere or wasted with flaring is a great use. At a utility level Saskpower is adding natural gas plants.

But what is the cost of your generation system, installation, maintenance and what value do you use for the gas burned or cost of operating an oil well? What would be an estimate of the cost of each Kwh?

How many systems such as this are operating on farms in Saskatchewan?

It would be possible to install a gas fired generator on most farms using gas supplied by Sask Energy. It might be possible to go off the electrical grid using solar and natural gas generation. But when your generator falls apart you still need the grid for backup. Or another generator. Gas fired backup generators are becoming more common.

[chuckChuck]

Thanks oneoff. I dont have solar but I appreciate you keeping chuck tied up in this thread. He has never posted any of his solar fantasy numbers or even any from his farm operations.

Conclusion: delusional activist

Jazz, Trump won right! And covid has gone away! Actually I think Covid has won and Trump is going away. Need I say more? LMAO