Open Challenge....Verifying claims with actual Grid Tie energy production.

[oneoff]

There is one flaw in your plan to use the bi-directional meter to measure production and consumption in net metering:

7.1.BI-DIRECTIONAL METERThe bi-directional meter displays the power delivered (dEL) by SaskPower to you and the excess power received (rEC) by SaskPower from your generation system. The power generated by your system is used by your building first. This power will not be recorded on the bi-directional meter, or displayed on your power bill, because it is used before it reaches the SaskPower grid. •If, at any time, your system generates more power than you are using, the power will be sent to the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as received (rEC) by SaskPower. •If, at any time, your system generates less power than you are using, power will be taken from the SaskPower grid and recorded on your bi-directional meter as delivered (dEL) by SaskPower.

My inverters have a record of production so that would be a better source of total production over any time period. I will take a look.

But the judges have already declared a winner. Your gas fired co generation running 90% of the time wins over intermittent solar in terms of reliable sustained total production. But we already knew that.

Lets start another challenge and look at carbon emissions per kwh? I thought you might like to look at that too. But that will be a bit more complicated to quantify. But the judges have already declared a winner. Solar.

So why are you choosing Dec 19 for the start of this comparison of net metering systems? All us solar system owners want to compare system output on June 21st! LOL

Actually Sunny days in late winter early spring are very good days to compare as well, with all that reflected light energy.

The thread challenge did ask for updates so here goes.

Project #1 has over 30,000Kwh banked on Sask Power's computer. For several months (as in all summer there has been no attempt at increasing the accumulation since there is already more than enogh Kwh banked to last the next two years before the rest to starting over on the 3 year term date. Power bills paid to Sask Power have all been substantially less than the monthly meter charge of 34.00 some dollars a month. You need to ask how that can be; and I would try to explain how Sask Power billing works. I agree one part isn't obvious.

Project # 2 is performing equally well and has over 51,000 Kwh in piggy bank. Just waiting for about 5 years of continuous running of the 460 cu inch Ford powered genset to demand a valve/ring job..and it will be shut down for an overhaul this winter. It does "use" a quart of oil a day; maybe the tubo is passing some oil...plugs don't foul; but it still runs like a top.

Power bills have been less than $10 per month; every month since last December. That includes powering the oil well motor; all lights for a quite large shop; multiple furnaces, welders, plasma cutters; air compressor; aeration fans and every electrical appliance that any of the rest of you enjoy. Again; that less than $10 Sask Power charge is for real. I don't lie and exaggeration is kept to a minimum. The costs of overcoming red tape are not accounted for; as these become increasingly less as experience and repeat setbacks can and do become more infrequent.

Project #3 is a 10 Kw inverter system to be driven by an Onan air cooled Natural gas genset. The system has gained CSA overall approval by the approprate agency; Sask Power interconnection study paid for and approved; but local electrician has not yet been engaged. The plan is that will happen late this fall; and will involve another Onan 15 Kw genset operating with cogeneration to capture much of the waste heat for a heated shop.

So you see that a person can build on a project; and only scratch the possibilities. Make use of a resource that has always been wasted..and do something quite creative. Even utilize close to 100% of the energy content of a fuel.

It is encouraging that while these projects were all the first approved net metering grid tied flare gas projects in Sask history.. there have apparently been at least one other attempt that got shut down. But because of privacy concerns; and unidentified factors (unspecified/couldn't be repeated details may be a better term) that didn't apparently meet with regulations . Certainly there was no attempt by whomever the proponents were to picking someone else's brain; but it didn't fly at some point. What is known is that there was the complaint "Why can't I do that too". Too bad that happened; but just maybe they should have also shared their ideas and would have been better off in their goal to advance what so far has proven to be a potential viable innovative use of a waste product.

The fact still remains that very few are willing to share their ideas; and it isn't always a wise path to follow.

[poorboy]

How are you calculating the Govt share if the carbon tax owing on the flare gas? Does the province or someone else need payment for the gas? Just wondering how the cost to priduce the power is looking?

I looked into a brief project in Alberta, but the new to grid only paid back the 6-7 cent kwh energy cost, no credit back on transmission and distribution costs, which is 3/4 of my bill.

[chuckChuck]

Hats off to oneoff. There are very few people who could put together a waste gas generation system on their own.

We will need a lot more innovation and conservation like oneoffs to reduce carbon emissions.

My 25 kw solar system produced year to date 27375 kwh which is probably on track to get to the average of 35000 kwh per year from a 25kw system.

Carbon emissions are zero.

[oneoff]

How are you calculating the Govt share if the carbon tax owing on the flare gas? Does the province or someone else need payment for the gas? Just wondering how the cost to priduce the power is looking?

I looked into a brief project in Alberta, but the new to grid only paid back the 6-7 cent kwh energy cost, no credit back on transmission and distribution costs, which is 3/4 of my bill.

Good questions that are seldom asked because most people pay no attention to history. A one line answer will just not due justice.


One line answer is that there are no carbon taxes due on Sask generation through grid tie carbon neutral energy.
The reason being that the Federal government relinquised regulation of minerals and hydrocarbons to the Western Canadian provinces about 1930ish.

That being the reason why the Feds do not collect carbon taxes at the primary production levels of oil wells and battery sites. Your provincial gov't has control at that level...and further Sask and I assume Alberta and Manitoba have come to similar agreements that were agreed by provinces and Ottawa as meeting the same ojectives; just through different means.

For instance Sask came to an agreement about Jan 1 2020 that committed to 45% CO2 (and CH4 equivalent by 2025) which even exceeded the federal objective.
There is still some argument about the Sask proposal to handle future years I believe. This all comes from memory, but its the made in Sask agreement. that now sees associated gas with oil production pay no royalty (as if it ever did...having been flared or vented as common practice world wide)

So the answer to your question is that flare gas is carbon neutral in Sask; just like geothermal generation, low impact hydro, solar and biomass methane.

In volumes needed for net metering projects, the volumes are even typically below the threshold to attract attention (900 m3 per day) as long as H2S isn't present.
As has been made clear, you have to have a legitimate oil company, report as every oil company must do, abide by and pay Orphan well fees if applicable, know what LLR status is and pay required deposits, jump though hoops of all kinds, get authorizations, acceptances and approvals you may easily overlook at first glance.

Cost to produce is what ever lubricating oil is on the natural gas engine, plus waterpumps, eventual genset replacement, but literally years a 10's of thousand running hours might be expected with little trouble. The 100 Kw unit, running at less tha 50% max capacity is putting about 450 Kwh into grid each day plus supplying power, heat, air conditiong for lets say anyting up to all but outlandish typical farm electricity needs.k
But just like a computerized water well E Logger developed in the late 1980's that not many may have heard of...doesn't mean they don't now exist but maybe need to remain dormant till surfacing at a future date.
Dates and percentages may be off by a bit so check to confirm exact figures. Princples I stand behind.

[shtferbrains]

How much would you have to produce to get a contract to SELL green power into the grid on contract?
As pointed out some of these solar installations actualy produce very little but are producing on contract or reselling to greenwashing power suppliers like the one that just contracted with Amazon.

[poorboy]

Thanks for the reply on how your system works. While I think the whole idea of having multiple small electrical generation systems is silly as compared to spending the money to clean up the existing power production, I am smart enough to realize that I must adapt to the new rules that the government has given us.

High energy costs are going to really cripple the rural population in the future.

[shtferbrains]

Thanks for the reply on how your system works. While I think the whole idea of having multiple small electrical generation systems is silly as compared to spending the money to clean up the existing power production, I am smart enough to realize that I must adapt to the new rules that the government has given us.

High energy costs are going to really cripple the rural population in the future.

California is "allowing" the use of diesle gensets when brownouts are expected.
Common practice in India and developing countries.

How will industry look at this when choosing locations?
Who needs industry.
We have the green economy.
Go China!

[oneoff]

How much would you have to produce to get a contract to SELL green power into the grid on contract?
As pointed out some of these solar installations actualy produce very little but are producing on contract or reselling to greenwashing power suppliers like the one that just contracted with Amazon.

Net metering does not generate any payment for production in Sask. It does allow you, at any time to use the kwhs you have injected into the distribution system at any time in the 3 year term (automatically extended).

The current contracts differ from the ones approved a coulpe of years ago, but I' happy with either set of conditions, although obviously, the current program isn't as attractive.

Look at as if Sask Power is the backup system...and they provide a "free battery". The price of fuel is "free" and free waste heat is valuable, and there is satisfaction in knowing something wortwhile has been accomplished.

Also there is are no snide comments on the horizon;
and if they ever comes there is a plan in place to handle the stupidity that may be published.

[TASFarms]

How is the fuel free?

[oneoff]

How is the fuel free?

Free as in "free"

Free as in if you would take it away and assure an oil company that under no circumstances would the product ever come back to haunt the company that wished rid of the considered waste asset them take it off my hands...except....

Free as in no royalty likely due to a province; most likely no carbon tax due (hopefully forever from an electrical generation perspective) etc.

Real oil companies have told me this. Thats also why I put free in quotations.

Liability makes it not so free; and also the real fear that someone could use or make a dime on that which should be "given" away instead of putting a match to it or venting wastefully to atmosphere.

It's a wordwide dilema that governments never paid any attention to until lately.

Or explained in one line as:

When the product being produced is heavier hydrocarbons (AKA crude oil ) the associated gas is usually a nuisance, commonly wastefully incinerated or vented byproduct. Basically with the negative worth of "matches"