A climate success story: How Alberta got off coal power

[Hamloc]

Here is the article Hamloc is referring to
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/sask-solar-industry-blasts-saskpower-s-relaunched-net-metering-program-1.5321716 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/sask-solar-industry-blasts-saskpower-s-relaunched-net-metering-program-1.5321716
Chuck hadn't responded to this article which contradicts everything he tells us about solar, so I thought perhaps he hadn't been able to find it without a link, just helping him out.

WIth quotes such as:
Actually it makes no sense that they still get 50 percent credit, compared to installing storage, selling excess back to the grid at half price is still a screaming bargain and a bad deal for the rest of the users burdened with the cost.

See the next quote for the reason.

This is what we have been telling Chuck all along

So how long is your your contract Chuck, and how will this affect the payback period?

Edit, I read through some of the comments. I think Bob Toso is our Chuck, or at least they are comparing notes. Same tired meaningless comebacks.

Absolutely correct Ab5. I do question why Chuck bothers, he is not the least bit interested in what we say or think only in lecturing us. But what is really interesting is that SaskPower as a crown corporation acknowledges the cost to the system of micro generators such as individual solar installations. I am sure power companies are ok with it when the government picks up the tab and it doesn’t take as big of a bite out of their bottom line. Biggest falsehood imo is that renewables are a technological advancement, still consider them a step backwards!

[chuckChuck]

Hamloc and A5 in summary: subsidies, incentives and support to the oil industry and agriculture good. Subsidies, incentives and support to solar and other renewable electricity systems bad. LOL

You better tell the AESO and all the other corporate investors in Alberta including Enbridge, that wind and solar don't work and are a bad investment! I am sure they will listen to you!

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Hamloc and A5 in summary: subsidies, incentives and support to the oil industry and agriculture good. Subsidies, incentives and support to solar and other renewable electricity systems bad. LOL

You better tell the AESO and all the other corporate investors in Alberta including Enbridge, that wind and solar don't work and are a bad investment! I am sure they will listen to you!

Did you read the CBC article?
Any response that is on topic, and relevant to the article?

[chuckChuck]

Yep I read it. I responded to Hamloc earlier when he asked about the CBC article. Here is one of my main points.

Sask power cross subsidizes various customers by offering large industrial users lower rates than residential customers. They also offer farm and rural rates a little bit lower than residential customers. Without knowing the various costs to produce and deliver electricity across the whole Sask Power system, its unclear what the real cost are and who is getting subsidized. I doubt Sask Power wants to discuss these issues in public.

I wouldn't rely on Duncan or Saskpower to be honest about what the net metering programs like solar and flare gas are costing Sask power. They are probably not willing to admit that cross subsidization is a reality in the whole system.

Saskpower offers the same rate to large rural users or small rural users regardless of how much electricity they use even though large users pay significantly larger share of the costs of delivering electricity. A small Kwh user gets full service and is billed only for the amount of Kwh that they use plus a small basic service charge.

In Alberta generation costs are separated from delivery and infrastructure costs which are a bigger share of the bill. Sask Power could switch to this type of billing system but small users including those with their own net metering generation systems would see their Sask Power charges increase substantially. As it sits now farm customers only pay around $30 basic service charge plus the the kwh they use.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Yep I read it. I responded to Hamloc earlier when he asked about the CBC article. Here is one of my main points.

Sask power cross subsidizes various customers by offering large industrial users lower rates than residential customers. They also offer farm and rural rates a little bit lower than residential customers. Without knowing the various costs to produce and deliver electricity across the whole Sask Power system, its unclear what the real cost are and who is getting subsidized. I doubt Sask Power wants to discuss these issues in public.

I wouldn't rely on Duncan or Saskpower to be honest about what the net metering programs like solar and flare gas are costing Sask power. They are probably not willing to admit that cross subsidization is a reality in the whole system.

Saskpower offers the same rate to large rural users or small rural users regardless of how much electricity they use even though large users pay significantly larger share of the costs of delivering electricity. A small Kwh user gets full service and is billed only for the amount of Kwh that they use plus a small basic service charge.

In Alberta generation costs are separated from delivery and infrastructure costs which are a bigger share of the bill. Sask Power could switch to this type of billing system but small users including those with their own net metering generation systems would see their Sask Power charges increase substantially. As it sits now farm customers only pay around $30 basic service charge plus the the kwh they use.

You must be a speech writer for Trudeau. An entire page of text without any relevance to the article, without saying anything and without addressing the fact that t contradicts all of your claims.

[oneoff]

QUUOTING CHUCK I wouldn't rely on Duncan or Saskpower to be honest about what the net metering programs like solar and flare gas are costing Sask power. They are probably not willing to admit that cross subsidization is a reality in the whole system.UNQUOTING CHUCK

This response is to set the record straight; whilst fully realizing it will have no impact on facts that have impacted minds that are closed.

The statement attributed (above) to chuck clearly pertains to SaskPower and Minister Duncan and flare gas Net Metering systems. Seeing as how there are only two fully approved; operational; "base load"; near 100% record of uptime since commissioning .........I object to a claim of them being a part of "cross subsidization is a reality in the whole system".........particularly for flaregas net metering.

I know that for a fact because am aware of those two flare gas net metering projects. Every bill and cost was borne by their owners. Not one cent of subsidy, grant, incentive; nor direct support has been received to date. It is grossly unfair to try to lead others to the contrary; when even the research and development (which has been openly shared with agriville readers) might as well have been and actually should have remained as proprietary data.

In fact; if there is any entitled subsidy that does arrive; it may well be donated to fund revealing a deep scam; that of making sure pigs fly and projects that aren't feasible and can't produce become the base energy upon which we come to depend.




Judging by the challenge put forth in a previous thread; it should be concluded that flare gas generation (in at least one particular set of circumstances) has an efficency; dependability of 24 hr production; environmental benefits and cogeneration applications that have been proven over more than 6 months of operation; to have a rightful place in a utility grid.

Spreading such falsehoods will not be easily swallowed. And I hope chuck comes to realize the truth in what he has seen firsthand

Hint AF5

[oneoff]

As documented in the "Challenge" thread of a few weeks ago; consider this a report on the first six months flaregas gridtie net metering generation of the first 5540 some watt project.

More than 24000 Kwh "received" and 4 kwh delivered by the provincial utility for farm use. It was a new meter with zero readings installed prior to net metering started the first week of July 2020. Assuming everything continues as the last 6 months ( with its 24,000,000 Watts contributed to the grid) there will be about 48,000Kwh for a one year period in the piggy bank. If deliberately disconnected tomorrow one could speculate if the next 30 months would create an electrical usage bill for the next 1 1/2 years or so.

This despite just going through the shortest daylight hours (not that there would be any effect); nor whether it ever rains again; or the sun ever shines or the exact opposite. The cost of fuel is royalty free; as it would be for anyone else who needs to reduce Methane and volatile hydrocarbons by 40% to 45% less than 2015 emissions. Don't try to tell me that both Federal expectations and Provincial Regulations have not been met. Remember the benefits of putting an always vented gaseous energy source to a useful purpose through cogeneration.

This project has not created additional environmental damage; unless you consider that your internal combustion engines should never run again; or that your electric vehicle shouldn't be recharged except when the sun shines in another month or so; or the natives begin to complain about the wind becoming an irritating nuisance.



Tell me again that you have a system that can equal or out perform; and doesn't need a "base load" generation to make the pet solar and wind alternatives even deserve passing comment; let alone honourable mention

[oneoff]

To be totally accurate; the Sask Power meter reading was 24937 Kwh a few minutes ago. In the last minute; with the sun above the horizon; the Saskatoon Solar Demonstration site is reporting 1224 W of current power output.

The Saskatoon web page documents 30 plus Kw of solar array; a 27Kw array and 3 kw of sun following cells.

Please do the math

[oneoff]

QUOTE Another important point is that the average annual capacity factors for the conventional hydroelectric fleet between 2009 and 2019 ranged from 35% to 43%. The average annual capacity factors for the U.S. wind fleet were 28% to 35%. Capacity factors are the ratio of the electrical energy produced by a generating unit for a specified period of time to the electrical energy that could have been produced at continuous full power operation during the same period.UNQUOTE

All discussion to date should have started with agreeing on what "Capacity factor" means. Above quote is from an EIA release; which should also be agreed facts. Solar capacity factor; according to Wikipedia ranges from approx 12% at a 49 degree latitude to maybe 29% elsewhere in world for solar generation. Nuclear is well over 90%,

Connect the dots and interpolate the Laws of Nature; and man's advancements to determine what the current state of affairs mean to civilizations.

[chuckChuck]

Oneoff, I am not disputing the benefits of flare gas generation. Its a much better use of flare gas than just burning it inefficiently and releasing all the emissions to the atmosphere.

We know that solar is intermittent, but that doesn't mean that it can't provide significant amounts of electricity from a free clean fuel source to reduce carbon emissions from fossil sources of electricity. That has to be worth something considering Sask Power spent 1.2 billion dollars of taxpayers money on CCS at Boundary to reduce emissions from coal. That is a significantly larger subsidy compared to the $54 million that Duncan claims is attributable to the net metering solar programs.

As a flare gas net metering customer of Sask power you are still hooked to the grid in case your system goes down. I am assuming you are receiving credit of 7.5 cents per kwh for any surplus electricity you produce?

And even though you produce all your own electricity needs, except when your system is shuts down, you are still hooked up to the grid with benefits to both Sask Power and yourself. But you will not be paying Sask Power for the benefit of backup except for the basic service charge? Correct?

Other than your system did not receive a rebate on capital costs and you're still taking revenue away from Sask Power even though they still provide the lines and infrastructure to be grid tied? Correct?

You obviously made a big investment of time and money. What is your estimated long term cost per kwh to produce electricity with your system?

Are you in agreement that without the actual cost of generating and distributing electricity to all different classes of Sask Power customers that it is impossible to know which classes of customers are receiving electricity below the cost of delivering it? (cross subsidization)

IMO, cross subsidization is happening in the Saskpower system in a significant way that make the costs of the net metering programs which you and I participate in relatively insignificant.