No pressure eh !

[bucket]

They have been making questionable decisions for a few years, the closure of a small terminal is hardly the cherry on the cake.

You can't know the ludicrous reasoning behind railway logic until you've dealt with them. I'm not saying that's for sure what happened in this case, but it's highly likely it plays a part. Saying trains go past it doesn't matter. The main drive behind loop tracks in new builds and changing spur lines to loops or kidney beans is the railways saying they want to service loops, not lines. Railways also want large trains, over 100 cars, to make it more worth their while. They don't want to piss around with 30 car spots.

And no, I'm not well versed in that area. You know what area I do know? One that has access to roughly 17 terminals, ranging from about 17,000mt up to 50,000mt. All within an hour and a half of my driveway. Some uphill, some downhill; some on mainlines, some not; some on main highways, some on dinky secondary's; some new builds, some refurbished old AgPros; Some loop tracks, some spurs. If companies are paying to build to duke it out in this area (not much of which is irrigated), then if the potential is as much as you say, they would be, or are, looking in your area.

It's funny how you can look at where companies are building and how they all seem to always pick the same locations with 2 or 3 companies building. Vegreville area got a lot of attention as has Northern Alberta in the last few years. Southern Alberta is starting to get looked at closer too. So if G3 and Viterra and Patterson and GCC are all building new sites in areas closely to each other, how come not one of them has decided your area is perfect? That is the big flag to me that something is going on that makes it not easy for them to build there. Here the big blind spot is Red Deer County. There isn't one big build in that county, just old wooden builds. Even if they want to build there, they end up moving out to an alternate site in a different county.

There's lots of factors at play in terminal locations. You only seem to care about a small handful, superficially.

Shit Blaithin ...you sucked me into a further discussion but i can't not respond....you trickster you...

I will highlight in bold what i find interesting


You can't know the ludicrous reasoning behind railway logic until you've dealt with them. I'm not saying that's for sure what happened in this case, but it's highly likely it plays a part. Saying trains go past it doesn't matter. The main drive behind loop tracks in new builds and changing spur lines to loops or kidney beans is the railways saying they want to service loops, not lines. Railways also want large trains, over 100 cars, to make it more worth their while. They don't want to piss around with 30 car spots.

Ok so the railways will allow G3, as an example , to operate CP's train on the loop for loading....

But an elevator with no other business on a branch line can't load straight through the same as a loop? You understand the logic I am suggesting...With the diminished business and the appropriate distance to load on these branch lines why do need to limit the carload to the spot anymore...

If Eyebrow could load 112 cars straight through ..surely the rules could be changed to treat it like a loop...the only other customer is the Viterra at Strongfield/GDT and one other...but surely to christ CP knows what they are sending for trains on that branch line...
Hope that is clear enough explanation...

Maybe that is some of the thought process I forgot to mention in my earlier musings about this point...

You have engaged in a good discussion...maybe some lurker at Viterra/CP will read our discussion.

[bucket]

In years that there is good production it sure seems odd that idling facilities makes more sense than utilizing them.

[Guest]

One other side effect of COVID is that old useless things are becoming valuable again
I mean , when a 2x4 costs $12 ?
Maybe some will rub off on govt and big business ?
I bet food wastage is way down also ?

[farmboy44]

I might have watched but it was stupid politicians that allowed it to happen...Lyle Stewart wants a billion dollar irrigation project and talks about the vision he had....highway 42 got rebuilt while he was envisioning this grand irrigation scheme and still wasn't smart enough to demand a primary highway upgrade....

How the phuck can you entice business here when the railways won't co-operate and the government is remiss to at least build better infrastructure on a rebuild????


Just little more about the area....essentially straight west of Eyebrow about 35 miles is Riverhurst where ,as they were installing the irrigation some 30 years ago, the elevators were being torn out and being replaced with the one at Eyebrow....rail line to riverhurst disappeared...and the highway is still secondary ...and the irrigation project is still funded 40 bucks an acre

Bucket ... the ... grain ... company ... doesn’t ... need ... to ... justify... why ... they ... dont ... want ... to ... operate ... the ... elevator ...

[LEP]

In years that there is good production it sure seems odd that idling facilities makes more sense than utilizing them.

Why did you stop using a smaller drill in favour of a bigger one? Because it made more sense and was more efficient.

The use of every asset in any business is evaluated based on what ROI can be expected from its use. If fact one business may achieve a bigger ROI than another with the same asset.

I know it seems simple to move the highway but it also seemed simple to my son when he was 10 years old to put an overpass at every rail crossing.

Sometimes you just have to quit beating a dead horse.

[Blaithin]

Shit Blaithin ...you sucked me into a further discussion but i can't not respond....you trickster you...

I will highlight in bold what i find interesting


You can't know the ludicrous reasoning behind railway logic until you've dealt with them. I'm not saying that's for sure what happened in this case, but it's highly likely it plays a part. Saying trains go past it doesn't matter. The main drive behind loop tracks in new builds and changing spur lines to loops or kidney beans is the railways saying they want to service loops, not lines. Railways also want large trains, over 100 cars, to make it more worth their while. They don't want to piss around with 30 car spots.

Ok so the railways will allow G3, as an example , to operate CP's train on the loop for loading....

But an elevator with no other business on a branch line can't load straight through the same as a loop? You understand the logic I am suggesting...With the diminished business and the appropriate distance to load on these branch lines why do need to limit the carload to the spot anymore...

If Eyebrow could load 112 cars straight through ..surely the rules could be changed to treat it like a loop...the only other customer is the Viterra at Strongfield/GDT and one other...but surely to christ CP knows what they are sending for trains on that branch line...
Hope that is clear enough explanation...

Maybe that is some of the thought process I forgot to mention in my earlier musings about this point...

You have engaged in a good discussion...maybe some lurker at Viterra/CP will read our discussion.

It's my eloquence with words, it's a fight to not respond Lol

By straight through I'm assuming you mean leave some cars out on the main line?

There's a couple things that I can see inhibiting that idea. Yeah on a shortline they could theoretically be overlooked but the reality of that happening is slim.

Terminal staff are not allowed to operate on main lines. Their training to operate the locomotives is usually very limited compared to rail staff. That would be a big inhibitor. Terminal staff also do not touch the switches that come on and off the main line. A train cannot stop quickly and were a terminal to leave a switch pointing the wrong way there's no way a train would be able to stop. There's not a lot of trust between the two bodies.

The grain companies are leasing the engines (if they're using CN or CP engines and not their own) and they're only legal to operate those engines on their own tracks. The grain companies own their loops or spurs, not the rail lines, they are responsible for their rail siding upkeep and monitoring, the railway companies are responsible for their lines. They are not covered to operate off company property. If there was an incident on the rail line it's now on CP/CN property not the grain co's.

Shit happens at elevators - break downs, not enough grain, quality problems, just poor timing - and cars don't get loaded right away or can't be finished. This would cut off movement past the terminal.

Shit happens at port and the cars can't be taken right away once loaded. Sitting a few days would cut off movement past the terminal.

Shit happens with the railroad and they can't move the cars right away. Sitting will cut off movement past the terminal.

Shit happens and the power has to be taken. The cars are now immovable for anyone and cut off movement past the terminal.

If you've ever been to an elevator and chatted with staff and the conversation has included phrases like "waiting for cars to show up" or "who knows when cars will be here, they were supposed to get here two days ago." or "no, those cars are already loaded. No idea when they're going to lift them" then you'll have some idea about why staying out on the main track could cause issues.

New builds have the capacity to move grain fast enough to load 112 cars in 8 or less hours. Does the Eyebrow infrastructure support that movement? 112 cars is over 10,000 tonnes, you say that's the capacity of that entire elevator, it's probably not even capable of having the grain required for a train of that size.

You say the elevator only had 3 staff when operating. It's going to need at least twice that to load out a 112 car train within required time.

It's also logical to think that Viterra would be able to organize itself so that one terminal doesn't block off the other if they need grain from that farther terminal. That's a stretch. Plans change, what arrives at port changes, sales change. All of a sudden what was supposed to head to port gets pushed back and something else brought forward. If the cars at Eyebrow get pushed back and the ones at Strongfield are needed but they can't get past Eyebrow, there's now an issue.

Also, when talking to ex CN and CP staff, it's shocking and scary how often they lose trains and don't know where they are and that they're heading towards one another.

It sounds like the elevator is a victim of its placement, probably right in between the rail line and the highway like many are. In order to get more cars they'd need to expand and to justify an expansion it would need to have a larger car spot and getting a larger car spot is next to impossible based on geographical infrastructure. More likely than anything, if Viterra is going to operate in the region again they'll just do a new build on a better location for a large car spot and maybe utilize Eyebrow as a secondary holding or specialty location.

[jazz]

Not to get in the middle of bucket and blaithin, but an idle terminal is not something usual on the prairies.

Any facilities like this one might be have been sold to pulse and other processors in the past who dont need 100 cars at a time and often truck or use containers. The facility could be repurposed to sell farm inputs at least or condo storage or loading farmer cars.

Inefficient elevators that couldnt get cars were razed to the ground and the tracks tore up, not left standing.

Very poor use of an asset even if its not on a great rail connection.

[FarmJunkie]

Collusion Bucket? U take this area I’ll take that one? Makes no sense if it’s your own money but to them most don’t care cause it’s not their skin in the game. I’ve seen it in our area where one company wouldn’t sell to another so they tore it down just to spite them. Only guys it hurts is the producers in the area.

[Blaithin]

Not to get in the middle of bucket and blaithin, but an idle terminal is not something usual on the prairies.

Any facilities like this one might be have been sold to pulse and other processors in the past who dont need 100 cars at a time and often truck or use containers. The facility could be repurposed to sell farm inputs at least or condo storage or loading farmer cars.

Inefficient elevators that couldnt get cars were razed to the ground and the tracks tore up, not left standing.

Very poor use of an asset even if its not on a great rail connection.

Viterra's doing restructures every 3 years and changing logos. Maybe they have plans for it and just haven't got along to it yet. Who knows with them.

Or nobody from the area wants to work for them and nobody wants to move to Eyebrow, SK for a terminal job.

[blackpowder]

I'll give it to bucket that highway upkeep a big issue.
I acknowledge that I operate in a lucky area. Bucket's costs are likely $20t higher than mine for storage and trucking. A cost of where he lives.
Here, I seldom start my own truck. Or purchase storage.
The basis I pay here now vs 10 years ago indicates the grain companies are spending far less than they used to. The writing was on the wall 15 years ago.
Our system has never worked as well as it does now. Some locations on the prairies have always cost more to do business in. Its just that now, post board, it's not carried by everyone.
I'm not sure if legislation can overcome geography.

[farmboy44]

Three guys ran that elevator when it was closed....it's a concrete that could easily have cans beside it ....move the highway and increase the spot. ...in the heart of the recently announced irrigation project....

Think another company isn't sniffing around....

It's a concrete built under SWP project horizon....quite a bit newer than the agpro elevator in moose jaw that is over 100 years old....why not blow it up? Before closing newer facilities. ?

You can’t even load a train with three guys buckeroo.

The whole chain is weakened by even a couple weak links.

[Old Cowzilla]

Sometimes good business is not selling your unused business to the competition ,just pay the taxes and fire insurance and pray for lightning .