Here we go again

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Chuck, your analogy absolutely does not apply.
The grains, hay, silage etc. that Hamloc is growing are all storable commodities. In fact, the only reason we even need to harvest some of them is because we get winter, and so we need to store them. By my math, over the life of a grain bin, storage costs are probably 10 cents per year. With an indefinite shelf life.

Contrast that with solar and wind in Alberta( Yes, there are places where they match demand much better). Their max supply is completely out of phase with max demand, but there is no economic or large scale storage. Certainly not season long or even years long as can be done with grain. These are harvested at random times throughout the year, and must be consumed at that exact second, regardless of demand. And demand does not go away waiting for supply to catch up, although that is the model proposed to be applied in places like California, Germany, Australia etc. Might work for AC, not so great for stock waterers.

[chuckChuck]

Don't need to store solar if you are displacing kwh from other sources or getting paid for the ones you produce. Once you are hooked up to the grid, storage, transportation and marketing are all taken care of.

Interesting story from Australia:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/ammonia-renewable-fuel-made-sun-air-and-water-could-power-globe-without-carbon https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/ammonia-renewable-fuel-made-sun-air-and-water-could-power-globe-without-carbon


Ammonia—a renewable fuel made from sun, air, and water—could power the globe without carbon

By Robert F. ServiceJul. 12, 2018 , 2:00 PM


SYDNEY, BRISBANE, AND MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA—The ancient, arid landscapes of Australia are fertile ground for new growth, says Douglas MacFarlane, a chemist at Monash University in suburban Melbourne: vast forests of windmills and solar panels. More sunlight per square meter strikes the country than just about any other, and powerful winds buffet its south and west coasts. All told, Australia boasts a renewable energy potential of 25,000 gigawatts, one of the highest in the world and about four times the planet's installed electricity production capacity. Yet with a small population and few ways to store or export the energy, its renewable bounty is largely untapped.

That's where MacFarlane comes in. For the past 4 years, he has been working on a fuel cell that can convert renewable electricity into a carbon-free fuel: ammonia. Fuel cells typically use the energy stored in chemical bonds to make electricity; MacFarlane's operates in reverse. In his third-floor laboratory, he shows off one of the devices, about the size of a hockey puck and clad in stainless steel. Two plastic tubes on its backside feed it nitrogen gas and water, and a power cord supplies electricity. Through a third tube on its front, it silently exhales gaseous ammonia, all without the heat, pressure, and carbon emissions normally needed to make the chemical. "This is breathing nitrogen in and breathing ammonia out," MacFarlane says, beaming like a proud father.

Companies around the world already produce $60 billion worth of ammonia every year, primarily as fertilizer, and MacFarlane's gizmo may allow them to make it more efficiently and cleanly. But he has ambitions to do much more than help farmers. By converting renewable electricity into an energy-rich gas that can easily be cooled and squeezed into a liquid fuel, MacFarlane's fuel cell effectively bottles sunshine and wind, turning them into a commodity that can be shipped anywhere in the world and converted back into electricity or hydrogen gas to power fuel cell vehicles. The gas bubbling out of the fuel cell is colorless, but environmentally, MacFarlane says, ammonia is as green as can be. "Liquid ammonia is liquid energy," he says. "It's the sustainable technology we need." ........story continues

[AlbertaFarmer5]

The seasonality of plant growth in Western Canada is as predictable as the sun rising in the east. The seasonality of livestock feeding equally as predictable.

Millenia of practice has established a workable system for matching the two. We figured out when and what to harvest, what moisture, how to store.

Droughts, hail, floods, frosts, snow all happen, we know that is a probabilty, and we prepare. We carry over stocks from previous harvests, we don't tell the cows to go without this winter since there was a drought last summer. We don't make it someone else's problem that we didn't prepare.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Don't need to store solar if you are displacing kwh from other sources or getting paid for the ones you produce. Once you are hooked up to the grid, storage, transportation and marketing are all taken care of.

What a brilliant and simple solution.
Now scale that up to 100% in a zero fossil fuel powered world, as the politicans are promising. Do you see any potential hiccups with your plan? At what point do you run out of other peoples money ( or in this case, energy)?

[chuckChuck]

Net zero may include CCS with fossil fuels, nuclear, hydro, geothermal, hydrogen and ammonia as mentioned in the science story from Australia.

A5, A lot of your assumptions are based on very negative view that human energy sources and technology will never evolve or replace fossil energy sources with anything else.

Your assumption that affordable storage for renewables will never be found or implemented is probably wrong.

Why would you think it is a good idea to ignore the reality that the earth receives massive amounts of solar energy every day. Don't you think it is a good idea to explore all the possible uses?

Australia on its own has renewable potential that is incredible.

"More sunlight per square meter strikes the country than just about any other, and powerful winds buffet its south and west coasts. All told, Australia boasts a renewable energy potential of 25,000 gigawatts, one of the highest in the world and about four times the planet's installed electricity production capacity."

Its not surprising that Albertans like you are scared shitless of the future. Alberta has come close to putting all its eggs in one basket and many can't seem to think of anything else than oil and gas as the engine of Alberta's economy. Yup the worlds going to change. You better get used to it and start planning for the future rather than trying desperately to hang on to the past.

[Guest]

What a brilliant and simple solution.
Now scale that up to 100% in a zero fossil fuel powered world, as the politicans are promising. Do you see any potential hiccups with your plan? At what point do you run out of other peoples money ( or in this case, energy)?

unfortunately , it shows the depth of the sheeple we are wasting our time arguing with

[Hamloc]

[QUOTE=chuckChuck;485300]

Australia on its own has renewable potential that is incredible.

"More sunlight per square meter strikes the country than just about any other, and powerful winds buffet its south and west coasts. All told, Australia boasts a renewable energy potential of 25,000 gigawatts, one of the highest in the world and about four times the planet's installed electricity production capacity."



Chuck2 please explain to me how the potential for renewable electricity production in Australia changes the inability of renewables to produce electricity in Alberta when the weather creates a stable air mass?

[chuckChuck]

That's when hydro, gas with CCS, geothermal, and maybe nuclear, all low carbon emitters will cover Alberta's electrical needs.

Alberta's renewable resources aren't as good as Australia's but they are still good when you look at a whole year.

If Australia starts producing ammonia or hydrogen from its vast renewable resources then they will have an exportable stored energy source for those who want it. If the Australia can do it so can the desert southwest of the US and Mexico.

[shtferbrains]

Do you really believe your BS Chuck or do you just keep posting up the same thing over and over to needle us?

[Hamloc]

That's when hydro, gas with CCS, geothermal, and maybe nuclear, all low carbon emitters will cover Alberta's electrical needs.

Alberta's renewable resources aren't as good as Australia's but they are still good when you look at a whole year.

If Australia starts producing ammonia or hydrogen from its vast renewable resources then they will have an exportable stored energy source for those who want it. If the Australia can do it so can the desert southwest of the US and Mexico.

Hydro is a bit of a conundrum for me in Alberta. Alberta has 894 megawatts of hydro capability but I never see it produce anywhere near that. This morning only 190 megawatts of hydro generation or 21.25% efficiency. My thought would be that water levels are much lower in the winter in the reservoirs.

As for ammonia, around here as an example very few farmers use anhydrous ammonia any more for fertilizer. Many of the local fertilizer companies no longer sell it. My understanding is that government kept increasing the regulatory load making it to expensive to continue using.

To produce hydrogen from renewable electricity is water not required? Is there a lot of water in the desert that I am not aware of?