Guys with livestock.

[Sheepwheat]

Hey all, just wondering if many of you have tried regenerative ag along the lines of Gabe Brown, or Greg Judy, etc.

As our fences encompass more land, and as we get more sheep, it sure looks like interesting ways to do things differently. I’ve been rolling out hay for a few years now, my thought being to establish pasture without seeding it necessarily. It’s pretty crazy what has happened so far. I was doing this before I was reading about these methods, but now I want to try it more. Any experiences with this?

How about extreme stock density, moving the animals daily, or multi daily? Bale grazing, swath grazing, long rest periods? In our area the limiting factor sure seems to be growing season length. Grandparents hit the jackpot of limitations in this area.

Just such an interesting topic to me. Soil building in extreme fashion, with no or little conventional inputs.

[Blaithin]

Hey all, just wondering if many of you have tried regenerative ag along the lines of Gabe Brown, or Greg Judy, etc.

As our fences encompass more land, and as we get more sheep, it sure looks like interesting ways to do things differently. I’ve been rolling out hay for a few years now, my thought being to establish pasture without seeding it necessarily. It’s pretty crazy what has happened so far. I was doing this before I was reading about these methods, but now I want to try it more. Any experiences with this?

How about extreme stock density, moving the animals daily, or multi daily? Bale grazing, swath grazing, long rest periods? In our area the limiting factor sure seems to be growing season length. Grandparents hit the jackpot of limitations in this area.

Just such an interesting topic to me. Soil building in extreme fashion, with no or little conventional inputs.

I've been doing little things to regenerate the acreage for years now. My biggest limiting factor is more my Mom is involved and she's very old school, graze it to the dirt, we can keep more animals back! mentality. Which means it's a struggle for me to rest places as long as I want/it needs.

Also I rent so I've been a bit inhibited about what I do (I spread the chicken litter from the coop on the front yard once and got a call about it Lol Looked great that summer though.)

Personally I've never done the high impact, high density, multi moves a day type things. I enjoy summer because I don't have to do much with the animals every day. It's my chance to go away camping and things, I don't want to tie myself down to daily or twice daily moves. Also work is in the way for that. However I have seen people have great results with it.

I concluded the best thing I can do here is increase my littler layer. I have lots of overgrazed area with bare ground showing through. As soon as the rain stops and the heat hits, those areas are done. Obviously a nice rest period, like a year, would help with these spots as well, but I struggle with being able to do that. I have managed the odd summer off and then grazed the stockpile once the grass was dormant, which helped build up the cover without stressing the plants. If I can get the cover up, I can help keep the moisture in which helps the plants bounce back from grazing and not require such a long rest.

The last few winters I've worked more on a kind of bale grazing. It's just an acreage and we don't set the bales out much ahead of time but we do drag them to areas that I think could use the cover the most. Because my winter feed bill is about the biggest bill I have (I don't put up my own feed), and there is the old waste nothing mentality here as well, the cows do usually clean up the bales pretty good so I haven't noticed a great build up of cover from these sites. The fertilizer is there though so that can be seen. My best cover building has actually been my bedding packs. As long as we don't deeeeeep litter and stick to one bale in a location, within the first summer 90% of the pack seems to be grown through with mostly grass and the odd thistle. This builds up the litter FAST, like 6" in a season, and the grass loves it. When the bare soil is baked to a crisp 15' away, I can dig down where the pack was and it's downright damp with great, thick growth. On the list of things to get is a portable wind fence so that I can bed the girls in the real bare spots that the snow doesn't even stick. With a portable fence I can move their pack around in the winter just like their bales.

A few years back I also did some frost seeding. Some areas had some really visible results, especially with the clover and alfalfa coming up, even the odd sainfoin and vetch. However I feel the seed bank works both ways. If we know and complain that weed seeds are in the soil for 40 years, then why wouldn't more desirable seeds be? Get conditions favourable for those plants and they will grow as well, they don't need us to replant them. Keep conditions sub par and only the undesirables are going to keep appearing.

If you haven't found him yet, check out Steve Kenyon. He does contracted rotational grazing north of Edmonton. They do get the moisture to support a bit more up there but he's still a big supporter of fixing the water cycle as well. Also works more with dormancy and annuals than some of the big names from America who don't necessarily have the seasons we do. His facebook is Greener Pastures Ranching https://www.facebook.com/GreenerPasturesRanching https://www.facebook.com/GreenerPasturesRanching

If you're in to reading a reaaallllyyyy, really, really long forum thread on farmers trying things out, then check out https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/improving-our-lot-planned-holistic-grazing-for-starters.224870/ https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/improving-our-lot-planned-holistic-grazing-for-starters.224870/ (or just skip to the end and join in Lol) There are a couple of us Canadians on there, although the more vocal fellas are NZ and UK and you'll hear lots of boohooing about how wet they are. Still interesting things to see like how they figure out fencing issues, make portable waterers, different bale grazing techniques, etc. Also lots of sheep experience going on there. Recently we were comparing "weeds" as those are a large focus for discussion there. What makes something a weed? When your ground is unhealthy, compacted and bare, the weeds are what you need to encourage first! Well in the UK two of the most listed weedy species were Timothy and Orchard Grass! The international component of the discussion really can help open one's eyes to what can be a good tool - if you can make it past the knee jerk "Well that won't work here because _______"

I still really, really want to get organized with my landlord and get a little plot of a couple acres organized with a cover crop inter seeded with their main crop. Adjacent to my acreage so that I can graze it with the cattle in the winter, save on my winter feed bill and see what it does for their soil and inputs. How does it affect their yield. Is it a pain to seed or to harvest. Do they save on herbicides and fertilizer (eventually). That sort of thing.

Personally the biggest things I focus on are:
- Litter layer for soil protection.
- Root mass.
- Diversity of plants (for diversity of root mass and pasture resilience).
- Trying to not graze more than 1/3 of the plant at a time.

There's different ways to achieve these things and everybody will choose what works best for them. Methods aren't that important if they get you to the end goal.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

I really like the concept. Manage to apply some practices. Rotational grazing, lots of rest between. Treat manure as the most valuable asset, and make sure it ends up in the right spots. I haul manure from many neighbors too.
I read through the union forage seed catalogue with great excitement about the possibilities for grazing and cover crops.
Then reality hits. At these land prices there is no way a commercial beef cow can net enough (or even gross) per acre to justify devoting an acre of non swamp land to any type of grazing. Our season is so short I can't find a cover crop that doesn't cost a season of production.

[Sheepwheat]

Wow, thanks for the responses! Yes blaithin I have come across Steve Kenyon. Good stuff, and far more relatable as you said than the American superstars. I mean I can only translate so much of what works in Missouri and even North Dakota as we are in our own little world of climate here.

I appreciate the thoughts, and know where your coming from. I’m building a flock, with enough land, but limited fences, limited resources to an extent, so things don’t exactly move at warp speed for me. But I am super excited for spring as I have ideas to try and new fence to build and seeds to grow. It is the same kind of excitement I used to have when I started grain farming so long ago in my teens.

Albertafarmer, I hear you on land values. We are fortunate to have relatively cheap land here. And also, for us, our lamb returns blow any crop out of the water in terms of a NET return per acre on our farm, so we’re all going to be different in that respect.

Finding a way to increase stock numbers and produce more on what I do have fenced is way too exciting.

I’m just happy to have this rejuvenated hope, this youthful excitement again. Feels like I’m getting rewarded for my efforts for the first time in my 29 years of farming.

Gotta run, grabbing some steel to weld some gates today, but I will be back to read your book, er your post blaithin more completely.

[Blaithin]

I think the biggest thing, once you’re excited about trying more regen geared trends, is to be patient and flexible.

They say minimum 5, more likely 10, years before you really start to see consistent changes. So it’s a long game and it’s hard not to get discouraged.

Then there’s the fact that every year can be completely different. With conventional methods people have the strength of peerage, conviction and previous experience to help pull them through. They don’t really switch stuff up much, they just carry on. With regen geared livestock you can have/use extreme flexibility. Be it grazing patterns, winter forage options, or even destocking.


Something like:

Oh it rained a lot, there’s great growth, I wasn’t going to graze it for another 40 days but I think I’m going to run them over it quick now.

Or (more likely here)

It’s too dry, there’s not as much regrowth as I’d like, I’m going to leave it alone until it goes dormant and graze it as a stockpile. Might have to feed a bit of hay or silage on a dry lot for now.

It’s so easy to get stuck in the feed in winter, graze in summer, loop. That’s what we all do. But sometimes you can switch it around a bit with good results. Just as an example.

This time of year is when I always end up getting a big list of stuff I want to try too. Gradually it gets whittled down to only a few things that I can afford to try, but still fun to do!

[DaneG]

I have been rotational grazing for about 6 or seven years, at first I used daily moves 100+ pairs on 3-4 acres/ day, rest is key to growing more grass along with rain of course. Water may become an issue for rotational grazing I ploughed in about 1.5 miles of pasture pipelines. Most of my cross fences are 1 wire high tensile smooth wire (lots of electricity) I also use some poly temporary with step in posts. I also bale graze on the pastures it seems to give the grass a boost more noticeable the 2nd year.
I have used cover crops a couple of times they grew well and the cattle loved them.

[Tucker]

We had cattle. Hundred and some cows when we finally quit. Kept the calves, short-keep feed them on seed plant screenings for almost free and sell them at 900. Sold them all about 8 years ago. Drove a 7720 then. Have two 9600's and a huge Lexion now. Bought 4 more quarters since we sold the cows. Wish I had gotten rid of that cow nonstop work 10 years sooner. I tell this story to anyone who will listen. Love this story.

Have a quarter that I used for pasture for 10 years. Cross fenced. Nice big water hole in the middle that every piece has access to. Didn't need it when I was downsizing my herd. Rented it. I ran way more but renting they ran 45 pairs on it. $100/pair for the season. Came off in the fall fat and happy. $4500. Minus tax. I pulled the fences next year and sprayed a couple liters of glyphosate. Direct seeded flax. Sold $45000 of flax. maybe $10k expense. Sold the rest of the herd the next spring. Went with my wife to Mexico for the first time. F uck cattle.

Mad momma cow rolled my wife under a gate when she was 8 months with our first son. We had great safe facilities. Dedicated calving barn. Still happened. They aren't worth that. F uck cattle. Never been rolled by a canola plant. The only way to win the game with cattle against the feeders and packers is not to play. They aren't the ones there with their hand up a cow at 2am at 30 below.

Heartland Livestock in Virden where I used to take my calves. I walk into the managers office with my cheque and go WTF. "Oh I guess the buyers just weren't buying quality today." Pour the f ucking roundup in the sprayer after that comment. They don't deserve your work.

[GDR]

We had cattle. Hundred and some cows when we finally quit. Kept the calves, short-keep feed them on seed plant screenings for almost free and sell them at 900. Sold them all about 8 years ago. Drove a 7720 then. Have two 9600's and a huge Lexion now. Bought 4 more quarters since we sold the cows. Wish I had gotten rid of that cow nonstop work 10 years sooner. I tell this story to anyone who will listen. Love this story.

Have a quarter that I used for pasture for 10 years. Cross fenced. Nice big water hole in the middle that every piece has access to. Didn't need it when I was downsizing my herd. Rented it. I ran way more but renting they ran 45 pairs on it. $100/pair for the season. Came off in the fall fat and happy. $4500. Minus tax. I pulled the fences next year and sprayed a couple liters of glyphosate. Direct seeded flax. Sold $45000 of flax. maybe $10k expense. Sold the rest of the herd the next spring. Went with my wife to Mexico for the first time. F uck cattle.

Mad momma cow rolled my wife under a gate when she was 8 months with our first son. We had great safe facilities. Dedicated calving barn. Still happened. They aren't worth that. F uck cattle. Never been rolled by a canola plant. The only way to win the game with cattle against the feeders and packers is not to play. They aren't the ones there with their hand up a cow at 2am at 30 below.

Heartland Livestock in Virden where I used to take my calves. I walk into the managers office with my cheque and go WTF. "Oh I guess the buyers just weren't buying quality today." Pour the f ucking roundup in the sprayer after that comment. They don't deserve your work.

Tell us how you really feel about cows, stop sugar coating it!


Lots of stories from guys that say the same thing, should have quit earlier. I do wonder what I would do with my time though. I fear the laziness embedded in my bones would takeover.

You probably still are benefiting from the fertility, wonder how long it lasts. Can tell where cows were fed 40yrs ago on some of my land still.

[Blaithin]

I’m going back to the cow section.... Happier people there.

[Tucker]

Tell us how you really feel about cows, stop sugar coating it!


Lots of stories from guys that say the same thing, should have quit earlier. I do wonder what I would do with my time though. I fear the laziness embedded in my bones would takeover.

You probably still are benefiting from the fertility, wonder how long it lasts. Can tell where cows were fed 40yrs ago on some of my land still.

Lol. You should find my youtube channel of Africa Twin videos in Arizona. You'll be fine. I prominse.

[Tucker]

Lol. You should find my youtube channel of Africa Twin videos in Arizona. You'll be fine. I prominse.

All those years of cattle the manure was spread on the home section. I don't see any difference in yield between that section and the others. Manure is good but it isn't all that. Direct seeding is what did it for me. My clay land loves a seedhawk.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

I have been rotational grazing for about 6 or seven years, at first I used daily moves 100+ pairs on 3-4 acres/ day, rest is key to growing more grass along with rain of course. Water may become an issue for rotational grazing I ploughed in about 1.5 miles of pasture pipelines. Most of my cross fences are 1 wire high tensile smooth wire (lots of electricity) I also use some poly temporary with step in posts. I also bale graze on the pastures it seems to give the grass a boost more noticeable the 2nd year.
I have used cover crops a couple of times they grew well and the cattle loved them.

As for bale grazing. The proponents always justify the waste by the benefits the wasted hay does for the soil. Probably true if hay and the land the hay was grown on was free.
Why waste 25% of the hay, when you could just feed 20% more cows with no waste and still do just as much good for the land with the nutrients in the manure, but have 20% more calves for the same feed bill?

Personally, I will put a feeder around the bales keep losses down to a few percent, move the feeders every time I feed and get the benefits of bale grazing. I have enough feeders to feed for 3 to 5 days at a time so still don't need to start the tractor every day. Very little additional fuel required to stack the bales, then haul them back out to where most needed.

[Blaithin]

As for bale grazing. The proponents always justify the waste by the benefits the wasted hay does for the soil. Probably true if hay and the land the hay was grown on was free.
Why waste 25% of the hay, when you could just feed 20% more cows with no waste and still do just as much good for the land with the nutrients in the manure, but have 20% more calves for the same feed bill?

Personally, I will put a feeder around the bales keep losses down to a few percent, move the feeders every time I feed and get the benefits of bale grazing. I have enough feeders to feed for 3 to 5 days at a time so still don't need to start the tractor every day. Very little additional fuel required to stack the bales, then haul them back out to where most needed.

Residue layer. Not just fertilizer. Bale grazing isn't solely about fertilizer.

Making the cows clean it up is why I’ve had better luck with bedding as cover than bale grazing.

This year I’m actually having good luck with hailed out barley silage bales. Fair bit of straw in them that gets left behind so it’s a threefor. They eat it. They sleep on it. It’s good cover. I’m excited to see what those spots look like this summer.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Residue layer. Not just fertilizer. Bale grazing isn't solely about fertilizer.

Making the cows clean it up is why I’ve had better luck with bedding as cover than bale grazing.

This year I’m actually having good luck with hailed out barley silage bales. Fair bit of straw in them that gets left behind so it’s a threefor. They eat it. They sleep on it. It’s good cover. I’m excited to see what those spots look like this summer.

I get that the cover is important. But there is much cheaper ways to get cover than to use expensive hay. I consider my straw to be free, since I chop it all back onto the land otherwise, so I bale enough to provide generous bedding all winter, moving it from the richest land to the land in most need of organic matter.

Because I am feeding on crop land, too much hay/straw really hurts the crop the next year tying up all the N, so the waste is a problem.

[DaneG]

I have been using bale feeders to feed bales while bale grazing it seems to promote better feed utilization by the livestock. Waste vs cost of feeders vs fertility value needs to be reconciled by each operation.