Todays Energy Use

[Guest]

Will that Tesla power your house when grid is down ?
I’m hearing they will ?

[LEP]

At home charging is roughly $0.20/kWh all in price. Charging efficiency of 90% so a 0-100% charge would cost about $16.67 for a 75kWh battery (Model 3 long range dual motor). This is the range at 100% charge on the highway (city will always be better, air resistance is your enemy)...

+30 460-470km
+15-20 495km (this is the sweet spot for highway efficiency, warm but not hot)
+5-15 460km
-20 300km
-30 250km

In 2016 we went to a Tesla dealership in Seattle. Sat in a Tesla and got the sales pitch. I believe they said that included in the price of a new car was one charging station. Tesla would use the money to expand the network in North America. Of course in Saskatchewan they were few and far between then. They said if you paid for a charging station you could charge your car on the network for free for life.

Not sure I would want to stop at Peavey Mart for a free charge everytime I went to Saskatoon. I know now 5 years later that there is a much more developed charging network but it still has a way to go.

I wonder if in the future people will drive out to their grain bin yard and find someone plugged into their panel plug stealing electricity?

[ColevilleH2S]

...

TOKYO -- A trip of 500 km on one charge. A recharge from zero to full in 10 minutes...

500km in 10 minutes. Think of the energy involved with that transfer.

Assuming 120Kwh capacity:
500 amps at 480V 3ph. What wire size would be required at that?

[Guest]

Details don’t matter
We are supposed to drink the koolaid and believe !!! And not question whether our poor old grid could handle it
Don’t try to make any more sense out of it than a helicopter cleaning ice off of bird grinder blades
Or Chinese panels covered in snow all winter cause it’s not worth cleaning them off

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Sorry Chuck, commercial scale, economical solid state batteries that are capable of functioning in cold and vibration are a myth. Toyota is still working on a prototype.
I hope they are successful, this is the type of technology that is required. But remember, battery prices need to improve by a factor of 10 just to make renewables competitive with fossil fuels, this looks incremental, not earth shattering, if it comes to fruition.
I've been reading hyped up headlines about SSB being just around the corner for years.

Wikipedia offers an (outdated) cost estimate. For the small sum of $100 million, you could power a car with SSB's. Assume that has improved somewhat.

[fjlip]

At home charging is roughly $0.20/kWh all in price. Charging efficiency of 90% so a 0-100% charge would cost about $16.67 for a 75kWh battery (Model 3 long range dual motor). This is the range at 100% charge on the highway (city will always be better, air resistance is your enemy)...

+30 460-470km
+15-20 495km (this is the sweet spot for highway efficiency, warm but not hot)
+5-15 460km
-20 300km
-30 250km

To be FAIR on road taxes/infrastructure, the charge cost should be tripled at minimum, to equal gas costs. Mass adoption will never allow 3 cents a Km.

[furrowtickler]

A5 is this the mythical yet to be invented technology you speak of? Wrong again!

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Most-read-in-2020/Toyota-s-game-changing-solid-state-battery-en-route-for-2021-debut https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Most-read-in-2020/Toyota-s-game-changing-solid-state-battery-en-route-for-2021-debut

Toyota's game-changing solid-state battery en route for 2021 debut

Japan's government to join forces with industry to supercharge development
Toyota Motor President Akio Toyoda speaks in front of an image of a concept car during the North American International Auto Show in Detroit. © Reuters
Nikkei staff writersDecember 10, 2020 07:29 JST

TOKYO -- A trip of 500 km on one charge. A recharge from zero to full in 10 minutes. All with minimal safety concerns. The solid-state battery being introduced by Toyota promises to be a game changer not just for electric vehicles but for an entire industry.

The technology is a potential cure-all for the drawbacks facing electric vehicles that run on conventional lithium-ion batteries, including the relatively short distance traveled on a single charge as well as charging times. Toyota plans to be the first company to sell an electric vehicle equipped with a solid-state battery in the early 2020s. The world's largest automaker will unveil a prototype next year.

The electric vehicles being developed by Toyota will have a range more than twice the distance of a vehicle running on a conventional lithium-ion battery under the same conditions. All accomplished without sacrificing interior space in even the most compact vehicle.

Solid-state batteries are expected to become a viable alternative to lithium-ion batteries that use aqueous electrolyte solutions. The innovation would lower the risk of fires, and multiply energy density, which measures the energy a battery can deliver compared to its weight.

It would take roughly 10 minutes to charge an electric vehicle equipped with a solid-state battery, cutting the recharging time by two-thirds. The battery can extend the driving distance of a compact electric vehicle while maintaining legroom.

Toyota stands at the top of the global heap with over 1,000 patents involving solid-state batteries. Nissan Motor plans to develop its own solid-state battery which will power a non-simulation vehicle by 2028.

The shift toward the new battery technology will also have an effect on companies further down the supply chain.

Japanese auto materials makers are rushing to set up the necessary infrastructure to supply automakers. Mitsui Mining and Smelting, commonly known as Mitsui Kinzoku, will start up a pilot facility that will make solid electrolytes for the batteries.

The production site, located at a research and development center in Saitama Prefecture, will be able to produce dozens of tons of solid electrolyte annually staring next year, enough to fulfill orders for prototypes.

Oil company Idemitsu Kosan is installing solid electrolyte production equipment at its Chiba Prefecture site with the aim of beginning operation next year. Manufacturing solid electrolytes requires solidifying sulfides, which is a specialty of the metal and chemical industry. Sumitomo Chemical is developing material as well.

Japanese manufacturers like Sony and Panasonic have been pioneers in commercializing battery cells for vehicles. But since the late 2000s, Chinese rivals have emerged to prominence. Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. Limited, also known as CATL, is now the world's largest supplier of lithium ion batteries. Japan's Asahi Kasei, once the global leader in battery separator material, gave up the crown last year to Shanghai Energy.

Electric vehicles are anticipated to become commonplace amid the global shift away from carbon. The Japanese government has been encouraging the domestic development of solid-state batteries, under the outlook that most of the technology relating to automotive performance will depend on China if the status quo holds.

The government is putting together a fund of about 2 trillion yen ($19.2 billion) that will support decarbonization technology. Policymakers will consider using those funds to provide subsidies of hundreds of billions of yen that will fund the development of the new batteries.

The goal is to support the development of a mass-production infrastructure within Japan. Because solid-state batteries use lithium, an element with limited global reserves, the government will assist in procuring the material.

The rest of the world is following suit. Germany's Volkswagen plans to have production running for solid-state batteries as soon as 2025 via a joint-venture with a U.S. startup.

Chinese tech group QingTao (Kunshan) Energy Development will spend over 1 billion yuan ($153 million) into R&D of solid-state batteries, among other areas. The investment will last for three years starting in 2021.

So a good fit on more temperate climates,
Vancouver/ Victoria be a good fit in Canada .

[jazz]

The majority of Tesla remote charging stations are still taking energy from the existing electric grid.

You drove a tesla to palm springs and charged it with FF energy.

Do you have any idea how much energy would be consumed by tens of millions of EVs needing 10 minute super charges all over the country? And if that were to eventually all come from renewables averaging 25% efficiency and the associated intermittency?

The mind boggles at the lack of thought put into this.

[ALBERTAFARMER4]

The majority of Tesla remote charging stations are still taking energy from the existing electric grid.

You drove a tesla to palm springs and charged it with FF energy.

Do you have any idea how much energy would be consumed by tens of millions of EVs needing 10 minute super charges all over the country? And if that were to eventually all come from renewables averaging 25% efficiency and the associated intermittency?

The mind boggles at the lack of thought put into this.

Yeah, I'm sure all the superchargers in British Columbia run on coal. Any EV running on the grid has the potential to become cleaner while any ICE vehicle will never be clean.

[Hamloc]

So you think that the average EV owner is using an extra 7000kWh per year? I use an average of 180Wh/km (this is higher than my lifetime average on a model 3 over 2.5 winters and 80% highway). 5km/1000Wh. Does the average person drive 35,000km/year? Why do farmers like GPS steering in their tractors, combines, sprayers, etc but bash an EV that can steer itself on the highway (not to mention stop automatically at red lights, pass slower vehicles on its own, merge in and out of traffic on the Deerfoot) ?

Ab4 my calculations were first based on hydrogen replacing gasoline being consumed in Alberta by passenger vehicles. Consumption numbers came from statistics Canada for 2018. Then as you have correctly pointed out an electric vehicle requires one third the electricity required for covering an equivalent distance with hydrogen fuel cell. I came up with a slightly better electricity use of 17 kwh/100 km. What you are quoting is 20 kwh/100 km. I also agree that 35000 km/year is certainly to high for most Albertan’s. I would say that fuel economy in gasoline powered vehicles on average in Alberta would be lower which accounts for the higher consumption numbers upon conversion. The fact remains that if all cars in Alberta were electric, electrical generation would have to increase by a large amount and if cars are charging overnight, solar will not be the answer!

[oneoff]

Ab4 my calculations were first based on hydrogen replacing gasoline being consumed in Alberta by passenger vehicles. Consumption numbers came from statistics Canada for 2018. Then as you have correctly pointed out an electric vehicle requires one third the electricity required for covering an equivalent distance with hydrogen fuel cell. I came up with a slightly better electricity use of 17 kwh/100 km. What you are quoting is 20 kwh/100 km. I also agree that 35000 km/year is certainly to high for most Albertan’s. I would say that fuel economy in gasoline powered vehicles on average in Alberta would be lower which accounts for the higher consumption numbers upon conversion. The fact remains that if all cars in Alberta were electric, electrical generation would have to increase by a large amount and if cars are charging overnight, solar will not be the answer!

The following tale was reported on Agriville a couple of years ago.

Chuck did not refute it so it is probably true.

It was claimed that IF Federated Coops Regia refinery of 100,000 barrels /day capacity were shut down; to replace that equivalent energy with electrical power would require a tripling of the current provincial electrical grid generation.

To say nothing about the effect on the distribution network.

Don't people see that single battery charges of 125 Kw are at least an order of magnitude greater than a whole residences daily electrical demand. This is idiocy to point to solutions until they exist and have been found to be practical and sustainable .

This course of action will impose demands on what is already strained by scarce expensive raw materials and infrastructure that will be hijacked going to Mars and reacting to dreamers pursuing their own premature delusions.

[LEP]

Untill solid state rapid charge batteries are in wide use EVs will be limited for long range in western Canada.

But most personal vehicle trips are short commuter trips that will work well for PHEV or EVs. You wont need a charger at work in other words.

Upgrading the electrical system to handle this load will take some time. But during a cold spell many vehicles are already plugged in for up to 12 hours a day which is a significant amount of electricity use.

The total cost of operating EVs will probably be much lower that ICE vehicles. We have only had EVs and PHEV of any number, for a few years. There will be massive change in this segment in the next decade.

None of us are still driving a Ford Model A are we?

This is true but at what consumption? I believe they estimate it is $14 a month to plug in your block heater compared to $14 for AF4's roadtrip. I know AF4 won't need that everyday but assuming 1 or 2 per block require that, it is a huge increase in the power required.

I was reading an article in the (left leaning) economist today where they say that EV conversion is the hardest part of lowering carbon output. This is because the grid just isn't capable of meeting the required electrical demand if our fleet of vehicles switches to total electric. A total upgrade will be required at the cost of billions.