O'Toole declares 'the debate is over' on climate change, but his party's grassroots d

[chuckChuck]

Thanks for the well deserved dressing down. Guilty on all counts.

We are currently reaping the rewards of science losing all credibility thanks to the likes of the Micheal Manns of the world, and the blind followers such as Chuck. We have a large portion of the population so (rightfully) skeptical of the lack of scientific integrity thanks entirely to the corrupt and fraudulent global warming issue, that when these same folks started preaching about a pandemic, they had no credibility at all.
The same people, the same political organizations, the same media, are now using the same tried ( and failed) fear mongering control tactics to sell the pandemic science.

They may very well be right this time, but they wasted their ammunition fighting the climate change battle, and now wonder why people won't listen to them. This outcome was as predictable as the sun rising in the east. Even with this relatively (thankfully) minor pandemic, the consequences have been dire, it has cost lives, imagine how bad it will be when even bigger threats come along.

Just look at Agriville, with very few exceptions, it is the same people on the same side of each debate.

They have learned no lessons. And their efforts to control the media and narrative and to declare what they consider fake news etc. instead of allowing open scientific debate has only added fuel to the fire.

So how is it an engineer has lost all faith in science? That would make most of your work unreliable! Should we trust engineers? And did you also lose faith in David Schindler's science?

The reality is a very large majority of canadians across the political spectrum do support the science of climate change. It's only a very small group of politically motivated people like you and your friends who deny humans have played a very large role in climate change.

As Erin O'toole said, the debate about human caused climate change is over. And apparently nearly 50% of Conservative delegates agreed

[AlbertaFarmer5]

So how is it an engineer has lost all faith in science? That would make most of your work unreliable! Should we trust engineers? And did you also lose faith in David Schindler's science?

The reality is a very large majority of canadians across the political spectrum do support the science of climate change. It's only a very small group of politically motivated people like you and your friends who deny humans have played a very large role in climate change.

As Erin O'toole said, the debate about human caused climate change is over. And apparently nearly 50% of Conservative delegates agreed

So instead of looking in the mirror and accepting responsibility for a situation you have had a big part in perpetuating, and now excaberating, you instead put words in my mouth and continue to make the preposterous and anti scientific statement about a debate being over.

In order for a debate to be over, all of the evidence possible must already have been presented. Do you think all of the evidence for and against the theory of global warming has been gathered analyzed and presented already? Tomorrows weather data let alone that from a century from now could not possibly be relevant to the debate?

[jazz]

In order for a debate to be over, all of the evidence possible must already have been presented.

Maybe as a fellow engineer you can explain to chuck the difference between science based on hypothesis with real data, observation and experimentation vs projection modelling.

I dont thing he understand either of those concepts and how much error is added to the projections as they are pushed outward in time. We are talking about 2deg here and the error bands on those models has to be approaching double digits because they are working off assumptions of inputs we have no way to even measure. Assumptions based on assumptions. We already nuked our economy based on false covid models, why would we double down on that? Last year at this time Sask produced a model showing 30,000 deaths.

Science has joined the media and govt as another untrusted group corrupted by money, personality and politics.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

In credit to the vast majority of bona fide scientists in most other fields, most of the corruption, exaggeration and anti-science messages come from the media and political types, not from the original work.
If you read an alarmist headline as posted by Chuck, then read the original paper, the two are often almost unrelated.
The outright frauds such as Micheal Mann etc are very much a minority. The just steal all the media spotlight, and it taints every other scientist and the genuine scientific fields.

[dmlfarmer]

In credit to the vast majority of bona fide scientists in most other fields, most of the corruption, exaggeration and anti-science messages come from the media and political types, not from the original work.
If you read an alarmist headline as posted by Chuck, then read the original paper, the two are often almost unrelated.
The outright frauds such as Micheal Mann etc are very much a minority. The just steal all the media spotlight, and it taints every other scientist and the genuine scientific fields.

Interesting you use Micheal Mann as an example of "outright frauds". There has been 7 investigations by both US and Uk governments into the hockey stick graph and not one of them found wrong doing. Micheal Mann himself has been the subject of investigations by Penn State and the National Science Foundation Inspector General and neither found him guilty of wrong doing or fraud. Mann filed libel suits in the US 9 years ago that are still working their way through the courts and to this point the defendants have not provided any evidence that his work was fraudulent, but they are claiming innocent only on free speech grounds. Granted, his case against Tim Ball was thrown out of court in Canada, not because it found his work was proven to be fraudulent but because Mann did not meet a deadline for providing requested information.

So i would be interested in the proof you must have to publicly claim Mann is an "outright fraud"

Oh, and BTW on Jan 22 of this year, Mann asked Washington DC Superior Court for a summary judgement because the defendants have failed to put forward any evidence challenging the validity of his science.

[seldomseen]

So how is it an engineer has lost all faith in science? That would make most of your work unreliable! Should we trust engineers? And did you also lose faith in David Schindler's science?

The reality is a very large majority of canadians across the political spectrum do support the science of climate change. It's only a very small group of politically motivated people like you and your friends who deny humans have played a very large role in climate change.

As Erin O'toole said, the debate about human caused climate change is over. And apparently nearly 50% of Conservative delegates agreed

The reality Chuck is that a large majority of Canadians live in an urban setting that is artificial and they are easy to brain wash about climate. The small group that lives out in the real world trying to make a living from the land with the help and hinderance of the climate.
I can't understand why you would be brain washed if you are out in the country making a living off the land unless its political brain washing.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

There has been 7 investigations by both US and Uk governments into the hockey stick graft

That's an even more interesting Freudian slip.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

As for Micheal Mann, no one can prove him wrong since he refuses to release his data. The same reason why no one can replicate his work, he won't release his data. The same reason his nuisance science by lawsuit trials all stretch out for years, going on decades, he won't release his data. He just lost another lawsuit recently.
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/national-review-prevails-against-michael-mann/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/national-review-prevails-against-michael-mann/
If he has nothing to hide, why not release it and prove everyone else wrong, me included?

[dmlfarmer]

That's an even more interesting Freudian slip.

Spell check error and if you check the time I edited my post and your posting time you will see that I had corrected it before you even had your post up. But thanks anyway!

[dmlfarmer]

As for Micheal Mann, no one can prove him wrong since he refuses to release his data. The same reason why no one can replicate his work, he won't release his data. The same reason his nuisance science by lawsuit trials all stretch out for years, going on decades, he won't release his data. He just lost another lawsuit recently.
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/national-review-prevails-against-michael-mann/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/national-review-prevails-against-michael-mann/
If he has nothing to hide, why not release it and prove everyone else wrong, me included?

AF% And you will notice if you read the article you posted that he did not lose that suit because fraud was proven but a summary judgement was issued because the courts found the publishing company could not be found guilty for something a blogger wrote on their website. Again, deals with first amendment rights rather than scientific fact and fraud. And that court found Mann's libel cases against the two bloggers for accusing him of fraud are being allowed to proceed.

As for him not releasing data, check out this site: https://insideclimatenews.org/news/07022021/michael-mann-defamation-lawsuit-competitive-enterprise-institute-national-review/ https://insideclimatenews.org/news/07022021/michael-mann-defamation-lawsuit-competitive-enterprise-institute-national-review/ especially where it states:
"That investigative project has never materialized, even though Mann’s side has produced more than 1 million documents in the defamation suit he filed, now entering its ninth year. The material includes emails, correspondence, notes, drafts and discussions with co-authors—including all the background material for his seminal 1998 and 1999 papers charting this century’s dramatic temperature rise, the so-called “Hockey Stick” graph."

So you use Mann as an example of "outright fraud" even though no one has proven he did anything fraudulent. Now you claim he has never released any data even though the courts have received more than 1 million documents from him and has spent 9 years going through his data according to this report. And how come he has to prove his innocence rather than those accusing him of fraud having to prove his guilt?

So unless you can back up your claim that Mann is a fraud and your claim that he has never released any information maybe it is you who are the better example than Mann of exaggeration, politics, and anti science messaging!

[sawfly1]

Too bad the liberals were not better at the job of governing.
Surely the could have found someone better than Trudeau.
Or programs that give you 60,000 and you only have to pay back 40.
That you have to take because you know you will have to pay for it in taxes whether you take it or not. Maddness.

That aside it is nice to see the
Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot, on this one .
At some point they will have to change ,just when ?
Not that I think we have to be all in at this point .
But science is generally right most of the time.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Spell check error and if you check the time I edited my post and your posting time you will see that I had corrected it before you even had your post up. But thanks anyway!

Of course it was an error, but you have to admit, it was a really funny error given the context.

And sorry I am too slow posting, takes a while when driving tractor with both hands while encouraging water to drain.

[jazz]

Mann has a history of defending his science by demonizing his critics. Guess healthy debate isnt part of his agenda. I doubt his law suit will get very far. Conjecture vs conjecture means it gets tossed pretty fast.

Everybody and their dog knows if actual case for climate change was brought to a court it wouldnt even make the docket.

[jazz]

Very much agreed, many times after I walk away from a conversation with a city dweller I think how out of touch they are with the world they live on.

Far as I am concerned, a person will never understand real weather and climate on this planet until they have had to fight against it for their economic survival, like farmers have been doing for 150 yrs in this country.

The worst most people will see of the weather is a few days a yr of longer commute or a flight delay. That creates a very gullible crowd to pander to.

[foragefarmer]

Now ya dun it.

Not a peep from the Social Conservatives of Agriville. Made a lot of noise against abortion but became deafening silent regarding legally married Canadian Gay Couples adopting a baby to prevent an abortion.


Where are you Sheep, Fjlip, Ajl, Oliver88, Tom4Tom, still waiting.

Personally I would rather see a Gay Couple adopting than an abortion, what about you Social Conservatives of Agriville