The end of the turd

[furrowtickler]

At least Chrétien Martin et al. were/are capable businessmen, lawyers, and seasoned in realpolitik. The dumpster fire now does not have real world experience like that and is running more on ideology. Pragmatism is dead from the shoulders up here. Throw in the influence from the NDP in this past govt is akin to Broadbent holding Trudeau captive. Unless inroads are made in the 905 and 416, there will be another minority. A majority for the liberals looks unlikely so far but there is still time for the red machine to pull something out. Only thing which could really hurt the liberals is if another black swan pops up.

Absolutely agree

[rumrocks]

What category did his potential UN appointment campaign bribe money fall under, office supplies for foreign embassies perhaps.

[6V53]

When you present data and facts that back up your argument, you often get lame juvenile insults from the usual suspects.

When you post an article that is counter to their thinking, their favorite whine is, it's too long to read or don't you have a thought of your own?

When you ask for evidence and numbers to support their arguments you are unlikely to get nothing but personal attacks.

It's all hat and no cattle when it comes to discussing many issues.

Long on personal opinions and very short on credible evidence.

Look in the mirror.

[flea beetle]

So you feel you can call me out for not providing a 2020 chart with 2020 data included yet you base your claim on a 2017 opinion article with no details on where the figures came from? And if you are adding in UN contributions for Trudeau, do tell what was the amount Harper contributed through the UN if you are going to compare?

The 2017 article showed one year only and debased your claim that Trudeau only spends $6 billion/year on foreign aid. The point I originally set out to make is that Trudeau gives money away to other countries with nothing to show for it. Just because it doesn’t fall in the “foreign aid” category, doesn’t mean it isn’t going on! I didn’t say that he spent more or less on the cookie cutter definition of foreign aid. You did.

If you want to find out what Harper gave to the UN, I suggest you do some work and find it. Not try the lazy way and try get someone to do it for you.

[jazz]

Only thing which could really hurt the liberals is if another black swan pops up.

WR, I dont know about that. This election has a different feel to it. Many more pssed off Canadians in a foul mood, the MSM not entirely on Trudeaus side this time. Libs have dumped half a dozen boogeyman arguments out the door in the first week and none stuck. No platform to release. Only thing they have left is the debates and we know OTool should clean skippy there if he shows. Otherwise bring out the Obama endorsement again.

[dmlfarmer]

The 2017 article showed one year only and debased your claim that Trudeau only spends $6 billion/year on foreign aid. The point I originally set out to make is that Trudeau gives money away to other countries with nothing to show for it. Just because it doesn’t fall in the “foreign aid” category, doesn’t mean it isn’t going on! I didn’t say that he spent more or less on the cookie cutter definition of foreign aid. You did.

If you want to find out what Harper gave to the UN, I suggest you do some work and find it. Not try the lazy way and try get someone to do it for you.

You mean like the work you did when you told me in post 112 "Now get a chart that isn’t from 2019"

And no, a opinion article in a newspaper from 2017 did not debase my claim that Trudeau only spends 6 billion/year on foreign aid. Go back and read the thread and you will find I never mentioned any dollar amount anywhere. I only ever refuted your insinuation that the Liberals spend more on foreign aid than the Conservatives and I did so using charts and % of GNI which is the international standard for comparing aid. So your statement that I claimed I said "Trudeau only spends $6billion/year on foreign aid" is pure BS.

You have yet to provide any factual data supporting your claim about which party spends the more on foreign aid. Furthermore, you are now claiming that there is nothing to show for the aid money spent while Trudeau was in office. Tell me, do you know where all the foreign aid dollars went to make such a sweeping statement? Was there anything to show for the aid dollars spent by other governments before JT? Are you just opposed to JT foreign aid or all foreign aid by all previous governments?

If you want to argue that UN contributions also must be accounted for in aid calculations, you have to include UN aid contributions made by all other governments you are comparing and it is a very weak argument if you cannot share with the the party you are disagreeing with the information you are basing your argument on and that they should look it up themselves.

[furrowtickler]

LOL , “what about” syndrome

[flea beetle]

You mean like the work you did when you told me in post 112 "Now get a chart that isn’t from 2019"

And no, a opinion article in a newspaper from 2017 did not debase my claim that Trudeau only spends 6 billion/year on foreign aid. Go back and read the thread and you will find I never mentioned any dollar amount anywhere. I only ever refuted your insinuation that the Liberals spend more on foreign aid than the Conservatives and I did so using charts and % of GNI which is the international standard for comparing aid. So your statement that I claimed I said "Trudeau only spends $6billion/year on foreign aid" is pure BS.

You have yet to provide any factual data supporting your claim about which party spends the more on foreign aid. Furthermore, you are now claiming that there is nothing to show for the aid money spent while Trudeau was in office. Tell me, do you know where all the foreign aid dollars went to make such a sweeping statement? Was there anything to show for the aid dollars spent by other governments before JT? Are you just opposed to JT foreign aid or all foreign aid by all previous governments?

If you want to argue that UN contributions also must be accounted for in aid calculations, you have to include UN aid contributions made by all other governments you are comparing and it is a very weak argument if you cannot share with the the party you are disagreeing with the information you are basing your argument on and that they should look it up themselves.

All I said in my original post was that they give away more money than some other parties to other countries. I said nothing about foreign aid. You did.

The author of the 2017 article cited the CIJ news for his numbers. I’m not going to buy a subscription to their paper in order to prove you wrong. But you are welcome to if you want.

Once again, my argument was that they give away more money to other countries. Had nothing to do with one single department. You posted the chart of only foreign aid. And I posted about the money given to the UN and also the money given to other countries to “fight climate change”. So if you want to refute that Trudeau gave more than Harper to other countries, my suggestion is go do some digging or else go pound sand. Because the only money you have accounted for that Harper gave to other countries is the foreign aid in your chart.

And as pointed out, the chart is skewed because Trudeau started giving yet more in foreign aid in the last two years, but the chart does not show that.

[flea beetle]

Your chart doesn’t include the 1.4 BILLION ANNUALLY Trudeau announced in 2019 to other countries for international support for women and girls health.

Or the 400 million in humanitarian aid to fight covid 19 in other countries announced in September 2020.

I am sure there is more. Just what I could find in a short google search. Will add as I find it.

[WiltonRanch]

WR, I dont know about that. This election has a different feel to it. Many more pssed off Canadians in a foul mood, the MSM not entirely on Trudeaus side this time. Libs have dumped half a dozen boogeyman arguments out the door in the first week and none stuck. No platform to release. Only thing they have left is the debates and we know OTool should clean skippy there if he shows. Otherwise bring out the Obama endorsement again.

True enough. O’Toole I think if he maintains his candour and poise he will look like he deserves to be PM in the eyes of the middle class 905 and 416 crowd. Maybe even the maritimes and Quebec. I get the sense he is trying to be a unifier like Mulroney was. As well, he’s taking a high road while the other side is smearing but it doesn’t seem to be winning the hearts and minds.

[jazz]

I see comrade Horgan in BC has now implemented a vax passport system. Jesus Canadians are dumb. Voting for their own prisons. Thank god I live in SK.

[Hamloc]

When did Trudeau ever claim or state that he provides a greater proportion of the GNI to aid than Harper did? It seems to me it is more a unsupported right wing claim that Trudeau spends more than a case that Trudeau is saying he spends more. More gratifying is how the message changes from Trudeau critics when challenged about outspending Harper and they are unable to refute the challenge, suddenly the message changes to Trudeau not doing enough as Harper did.

PS I have to edit this post to add this "gratifying" Fox breaking news interview. The similarities to your comment and the interviewers questions are so similar. Namely: If position I held is wrong, then you better be able to challenge the other side of the argument that I now endorse. https://twitter.com/i/status/1429823392992145416

Dml it took me less than 5 mins to find this. On the philanthropist.ca in an article titled “Canada,s International Development Sector Hoping for increased Aid Spending in 2020 After Years of Declining Contributions. Here is a quote that pertains to my assertion: “When it came to power in 2015, the Justin Trudeau government promised it would halt the decline in foreign aid spending that occurred under the Stephen Harper Conservatives as part of its boast that “Canada is back” on the global stage.” So I am curious Dml you don’t believe Trudeau promised to out spend Stephen Harper? He also promised to have a more open, honest and transparent government, how did that go?

[Guest]

oh, oh , dml
more of those darn details
must be so frustrating for you?

[dmlfarmer]

Dml it took me less than 5 mins to find this. On the philanthropist.ca in an article titled “Canada,s International Development Sector Hoping for increased Aid Spending in 2020 After Years of Declining Contributions. Here is a quote that pertains to my assertion: “When it came to power in 2015, the Justin Trudeau government promised it would halt the decline in foreign aid spending that occurred under the Stephen Harper Conservatives as part of its boast that “Canada is back” on the global stage.” So I am curious Dml you don’t believe Trudeau promised to out spend Stephen Harper? He also promised to have a more open, honest and transparent government, how did that go?

Hamloc, thanks very much for posting this, it really supports the point I was making that the Trudeau government is not spending more than previous governments as most Canadians believe and which flea beetle insinuated but which he cannot support with any facts. For those of you who want to read the article Hamloc referred to here is the link: https://thephilanthropist.ca/2020/01/canadas-international-development-sector-hoping-for-increased-aid-spending-in-2020-after-years-of-declining-contributions/

I will highlight a few statements I found very interesting. Note this was written in 2020 so it is up to date and reflects current JT government foreign aid spending:
-"Canadians routinely and dramatically overestimate the generosity of a government that is perceived as being deeply altruistic, when, in fact, it is increasingly miserly."
-"A half-century after former Prime Minister Lester Pearson called on the world’s industrialized nations to spend 0.7% of Gross Domestic Income (GDI) on foreign aid, this country sits at a near 50-year low in spending as a percentage of GDI, 0.28%." (note this is below the Harper government 0.30 average for his years in office and which topped at 0.31% in 2012)
-"But during the first Trudeau term, aid spending did not approach 2012 levels, let alone levels seen in the 1980s or ‘90s."
-"Former Conservative Prime Minister Brian Mulroney recently called today’s level of foreign aid “anemic and embarrassing.” But as long as Canadians overestimate our aid contributions, there is little incentive for the government to actually spend more."
-"Other industrialized nations throw shade on Canada. The United Kingdom enshrined the 0.7% contribution in legislation and maintains that level today despite internal pressures to spend less. Germany is only slightly behind at 0.63%. Norway tops the field, contributing 0.94% of GDI to foreign aid."

To base an argument on political promises made in an election period rather than the actual actions of a government once elected is hilarious. I am sure Trudeau would have loved to increase aid, but has not been able to do so. In 2012 the Conservatives promised that Growing Forward 2 would help farmers. Hamloc, do you think the changes to AgriStability made then are better for farmers? How about the new seed regulations, or the birth of Seed Synergy which really began with the adoption of the Senate recommendations adopted by the Conservatives in 2012.

[dmlfarmer]

Oh, and Hamloc, you better be careful when using sources like philanthropist.ca and referencing arguments which go against unsupported right wing criticisms of Trudeau or soon guys like jwab and flea beetle will begin seeing you as a left winger and caseih will be trying to insult you and telling you to F off too.