Top - Phos

[fjlip]

TOP-PHOS IS A SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION

• New manufacturing process – unique chemical signature
• New complexed raw material
• EU Reach registered
• Ag In Motion 2019 Innovation Award winner
• Provides soluble phosphates in high and low pH soils
• 100% Orthophosphate

KEY BENEFITS
• Complexing agents protect phosphate against tie up in low and high pH soils
• Water-soluble phosphate
• Root biostimulant effect
• Low salt index (9)


Anyone have experience with this ?

[the big wheel]

Need to put more than they recommend.
Based on my own small trials

[bobofthenorth]

The grain business has been too good for too long. There is an amazing array of snake oil being offered to farmers and apparently at least some of you are buying.

[shtferbrains]

Do you buy semi loads or a few jugs in the back of the pickup?

[the big wheel]

Hauled with the Datsun. Lmao!

[workboots]

This idea that phosphorus in its traditional fertilizer formations is becoming “locked up”. I’d like to see the evidence for this. I’m talking long term inaccessible loss to the point that a producer would not be able to utilize this phosphate for plant growth in the foreseeable future.

I like the low salt feature of some of these new products and perhaps we have a good candidate for a seed safe starter but I doubt this has any economical value as a soil nutrient building tool.

[the big wheel]

It’s a better product but you have to
Use more than they say. Root growth
Much higher crop greener and healthier
But in the end not a whole lot of yield benefit
at these prices it pays
But at the old prices it s debatable. This was
However under poor moisture conditions
Maybe in better moisture the difference would
Have been more maybe not.

[helmach]

This idea that phosphorus in its traditional fertilizer formations is becoming “locked up”. I’d like to see the evidence for this. I’m talking long term inaccessible loss to the point that a producer would not be able to utilize this phosphate for plant growth in the foreseeable future.

I like the low salt feature of some of these new products and perhaps we have a good candidate for a seed safe starter but I doubt this has any economical value as a soil nutrient building tool.

At the risk of being called a whack or used snakeoil kook, have any of you guys looked into or have any experience with Thermo Poly Aspartate (tpa) for using to impregnate dry phos (map,dap)?

It's a negatively charged synthetic bio polymer. Essentially has a hi cation exchange capacity that minimizes bonding between + charged ions. for example hi ph calcareous soils are high in Ca2+ likewise lo ph acidic soils are high in fe3+ and al3+. The negatively charged protein has a weak covalent bond when impregnated with po4- thus not allowing it to react with other metal ions in the soils reducing tie up and utilizing what's actually applied verses the % loss to bonding with other metal ions.

[blackpowder]

Very interesting and relevant topic.
Question, does anyone on here have a degree in chemistry?

[Rareearth]

So tpa is a chelation product. No never heard of it.

Humic acids are accepted in the green houses, jurry still out still a chelation product

The other chelation products such as edta might have environmental - safety issues ( this is what many currently available - commercial products use

[seedman]

At the risk of being called a whack or used snakeoil kook, have any of you guys looked into or have any experience with Thermo Poly Aspartate (tpa) for using to impregnate dry phos (map,dap)?

It's a negatively charged synthetic bio polymer. Essentially has a hi cation exchange capacity that minimizes bonding between + charged ions. for example hi ph calcareous soils are high in Ca2+ likewise lo ph acidic soils are high in fe3+ and al3+. The negatively charged protein has a weak covalent bond when impregnated with po4- thus not allowing it to react with other metal ions in the soils reducing tie up and utilizing what's actually applied verses the % loss to bonding with other metal ions.

Yup. We have been using TPA and Carboxylate in our liquid starter formulation for about 5 years now. It is part of the composition of the blend we get. It is part of the program we use including humics, fulvics and foliar applications. We have reduced the amount of P we use on our operation overall and when we take our tissue tests or send SAP analysis to Novacropcontrol in the Netherlands, we are never short on P in the analysis. As far as "mining" our soil goes, yeah well we have 12 years of GPS referenced soil tests, both full macro and micro panel, 0-6, 6-12, and 12-24 inch which seem to so far refute the "mining" idea... But time will tell...

[JankoFarms]

Yup. We have been using TPA and Carboxylate in our liquid starter formulation for about 5 years now. It is part of the composition of the blend we get. It is part of the program we use including humics, fulvics and foliar applications. We have reduced the amount of P we use on our operation overall and when we take our tissue tests or send SAP analysis to Novacropcontrol in the Netherlands, we are never short on P in the analysis. As far as "mining" our soil goes, yeah well we have 12 years of GPS referenced soil tests, both full macro and micro panel, 0-6, 6-12, and 12-24 inch which seem to so far refute the "mining" idea... But time will tell...

I like this, we seem to be seeing better P uptake/utilization as well as with a lignohumate product mixed with our 28-0-0.

[workboots]

We’ve been applying 110lb- 120lb/ac of MAP annually for the last 5 years. It doesn’t leach, gas off, and I’m pretty sure any bonding it’s doing in the soil will be temporary, if that means 5 years or 25 I don’t really mind.

Most plants excrete root exudates, organic acid compounds meant to act as natural chelators to free up essential nutrients. Many of the crops we grow can scavenge nutrients fairly well. I don’t grow faba but supposedly you will find higher levels of Phos after a season regardless of fertilizer application & supposedly this is also true to a lessor extent with other legumes.

One concern I would have with artificial chelators is the risk of driving excessive macro and micronutrients out of the soil but idk maybe this isn’t a problem for these products. Regardless, nobody is paying us for higher nutrient dense food or oil content or protein for that matter.

Natures balance can easily be disrupted by man technological intervention. A slow creep of soil acidification is happening with fertilizer use and with higher soil PH we also usher in a heightened risk of desease pressure from clubroot and company.

These heavy blanket applications of elemental S for example are showing a tendency to elevate many nutrient element levels in plant material. That’s great for the near term but does this fit with the “sustainable” train. Speaking of snake oil, has anyone actually found a decent micronutrient product with reasonable amounts of the elements in question. It seems like the little jugs iv seen for sale have more food dye in them then anything. The nutrient quantities don’t add up to anything more then the most minuscule supplement.

Will definitely look into this TPA

[helmach]

So tpa is a chelation product. No never heard of it.

Humic acids are accepted in the green houses, jurry still out still a chelation product

The other chelation products such as edta might have environmental - safety issues ( this is what many currently available - commercial products use

It's a polymer coating much like esn, has a high exchange capacity not specific to metal ions? Extreamly cheap to apply and have noticed a much more green index from the crop throughout the growing season.

Humic acid has alot of weight behind it when in the soil, especially when used with liquid 28-0-0. It is the original nitrogen stabilizer, buffers soil ph and has a high cation exchange capacity.

Fulvic acid is something I'm still learning, 3 yrs is not enough data for me
just yet. (using fulvic in micros to achieve better utilization/uptake through the mitochondria of cell tissue)

I'

[helmach]