WAR

[riders2010]

History is such an important thing to learn
From however it’s important to understand
That the history you are told may have the spin
Or experience of the writer built in to it and
May not be the history your own relatives actually
Experienced.

When we talk about Putin I suppose if you were
In his inner circle getting benefits at the expense
Of others for nothing you might think that was ok
And he was great if you were being shot at or poisoned
Because they wanted your house your view would be
Different.

Growing up in our immediate area there were mostly
Ukrainians, pollaks, a few English and the odd German
For the most part. Each neighbor almost had a different
View of the others background. The thing that
Brought them all together was the need to work together
To build a better community and survive. Through that people
learned They could be different or have different views
yet be good neighbours. Until some asshole came along
And we’ll was just an asshole then shit got more
Complicated unless you understood it was just one
Asshole and not the whole group. Some would back
The asshole just on where they came from some
Would be embarrassed. Human nature is a complicated
Thing.
Sometimes I think it’s a miracle there aren’t wars
All the time 24/7.

[fjlip]

"That the history you are told may have the spin
Or experience of the writer built in to it and
May not be the history your own relatives actually
Experienced."

One grandfather, ran away from home in Poland at 13, and worked in a German factory before WW1. Always respectfully spoke of their innovations and attitude. Once in awhile the words "the German way" were used. Was very disappointed with WW 2 of course, plus many relatives died over there. First Nazis, then Communists had their way. Always thankful they left it all behind in 1929. Typical of all neighbors.

This community had immigrants from EVERY European nation plus the indigenous. All got along, many religious denominations, never a problem between any. All learned and accepted a common language. Every child went to same schools. I think those brave adventurous people that left developed society there to come here to nearly NO development, were open minded, accepting of all cultures. Those that stayed were less so. We can be proud of our ancestors tolerance. Families on both side intermarried, a blend of Europe.

[jazz]

What a bunch of hyperbole, Putin is no Stalin. Most of Crimea wanted to rejoin Russia, that was a pretty bloodless take over by comparison to others in history. Probably Ukrainian people mostly feel the same way.

Watch Zeihan on this topic, he says Russia needs to make this move shortly for demographic and nationalistic reasons. What better time than with Biden in office. Not going to got to WW3 over some distant land ever, including Taiwan.

[foragefarmer]

What a bunch of hyperbole, Putin is no Stalin. Most of Crimea wanted to rejoin Russia, that was a pretty bloodless take over by comparison to others in history. Probably Ukrainian people mostly feel the same way.

Watch Zeihan on this topic, he says Russia needs to make this move shortly for demographic and nationalistic reasons. What better time than with Biden in office. Not going to got to WW3 over some distant land ever, including Taiwan.

Wall Street Journal


"Since then, more than 14,000 people have been killed in the Donbas region and political settlement remains far off despite a peace agreement negotiated by Germany and France. "


"Most Ukrainian people mostly feel the same way"


Jazz, nice to see you have a pulse on what the Ukrainian people feel about Putin's aggressions.

You come across as taking pleasure in Putin's military actions towards Ukraine and are hoping the invasion happens simply for the reason of making Biden look weak.

That's messed up!

[jazz]

Dig deeper forage, ever since the fall of the USSR, the west and Nato have been trying to draw Ukraine into their fold to use as a buffer to weaken and demonize Russia. The people of Russia wanted nothing but to extend a hand of friendship with the west and what did they get. Instead of welcoming them into the world, we have continued to demonize and start another cold war with them while totally ignoring china. We just watched 3 yrs of the western media lying about russian interference in our political system.

Meanwhile China has imprisoned hundreds of thousands of people, crushed dissidents, murdered objectors and applied a omnipresent govt surveillance apparatus on its people.

Reap what you sow.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

It wasn't the Ukrainians who starved millions of Russians and took their farm land away from them.

That's what the discussion has centered around.

As for territory, does your memory not got back as far as 2014 right after the Winter Olympics finished in Russia?

I don't think you read my post at all. My sympathies are with the Ukranian people, and all of their neighbors.

But picking some arbitrary date, using the arbitrary man made political borders that existed at that time and declaring that to be, and that would solve any problems is ignoring history.

Off the top of my head, areas that consititute current Ukraine have at one time been controlled by:
Greeks, Turks, Ottomans, Kievan Rus, Moscovy, Poland, Lithuania, Mongols Austria, Hungary, Germany, USSR, Russia etc. or whatever names they went by at the time. See Makar's post above for an example.

Just like in the middle east, nearly every group can claim make a land claim if you go back through history far enough.

And as for your first point, as tragic as the Holodomor was, it wasn't limited to the Ukraine, the horrors forced collectivization, inlcuding stavation, and purges occurred throughout the USSR. Read some history. No one or no group was immune to the murderous Communist regime.

[foragefarmer]

Dig deeper forage, ever since the fall of the USSR, the west and Nato have been trying to draw Ukraine into their fold to use as a buffer to weaken and demonize Russia. The people of Russia wanted nothing but to extend a hand of friendship with the west and what did they get. Instead of welcoming them into the world, we have continued to demonize and start another cold war with them while totally ignoring china. We just watched 3 yrs of the western media lying about russian interference in our political system.

Meanwhile China has imprisoned hundreds of thousands of people, crushed dissidents, murdered objectors and applied a omnipresent govt surveillance apparatus on its people.

Reap what you sow.

Maybe you should dig deeper.

So when Putin's puppet President Viktor Yanukovych was booted out by the movement known as 'Euromaidan' because the majority of Ukrainians demanded closer ties with Europe this gave Putin the right to invade Ukraine.

I guess Ukrainian democracy means nothing, and in your mind Putin's invasion is justified. The way your defending Putin comes across as sounding you'd like your land taken away from you.



Nice defection towards China Jazz!

[riders2010]

Dig deeper forage, ever since the fall of the USSR, the west and Nato have been trying to draw Ukraine into their fold to use as a buffer to weaken and demonize Russia. The people of Russia wanted nothing but to extend a hand of friendship with the west and what did they get. Instead of welcoming them into the world, we have continued to demonize and start another cold war with them while totally ignoring china. We just watched 3 yrs of the western media lying about russian interference in our political system.

Meanwhile China has imprisoned hundreds of thousands of people, crushed dissidents, murdered objectors and applied a omnipresent govt surveillance apparatus on its people.

Reap what you sow.

Well my relatives tell a complete different
Story. Putin is all
About Putin and not his people and I wouldn’t have
Another breath if I said that over there and cannot
Barely be said even in the Ukraine as there are
Spies and backstabbers getting rewards for reporting
Poisoning beating etc.
A mad man wanting ultimate power possessing control
Over the army the so called justice system etc.
Heaven help all of us if and when he completely goes
Off his rocker and wants to do something bananas
You could never remove him without a bullet.

[foragefarmer]

I don't think you read my post at all. My sympathies are with the Ukranian people, and all of their neighbors.

But picking some arbitrary date, using the arbitrary man made political borders that existed at that time and declaring that to be, and that would solve any problems is ignoring history.

Off the top of my head, areas that consititute current Ukraine have at one time been controlled by:
Greeks, Turks, Ottomans, Kievan Rus, Moscovy, Poland, Lithuania, Mongols Austria, Hungary, Germany, USSR, Russia etc. or whatever names they went by at the time. See Makar's post above for an example.

Just like in the middle east, nearly every group can claim make a land claim if you go back through history far enough.

And as for your first point, as tragic as the Holodomor was, it wasn't limited to the Ukraine, the horrors forced collectivization, inlcuding stavation, and purges occurred throughout the USSR. Read some history. No one or no group was immune to the murderous Communist regime.

Where in your post I made reference to do you state any sympathy toward the Ukrainian people?

You only spoke about the difficulty of choosing sides. Stalin staved Ukrainians and took their land, I know you weren't there in the 1930's to make that decision, but in present day at least take somewhat of a stand on the issue. That's why you threw "NEIGHBORS" in this post.

That's a trait of yours AB5 you never choose sides, you did it with Trump and Covid.


We're talking about Putin's invasion of Ukraine not the Middle East.

[Guest]

Holy shit , you used that “word”
They will be coming

[TOM4CWB]

Where in your post I made reference to do you state any sympathy toward the Ukrainian people?

You only spoke about the difficulty of choosing sides. Stalin staved Ukrainians and took their land, I know you weren't there in the 1930's to make that decision, but in present day at least take somewhat of a stand on the issue. That's why you threw "NEIGHBORS" in this post.

That's a trait of yours AB5 you never choose sides, you did it with Trump and Covid.


We're talking about Putin's invasion of Ukraine not the Middle East.

Looks like the EU doesn't care much about the Ukraine... or Poland either for that matter...[not worth a war ... only 'lip service' support]

The EU/West Germany got East Germany back [from the USSR]... that was the real prize for them that mattered... Putin is obviously reassembling 'his' entitlement... the 'Soviet Block' [which most Russians support]. The west is now far enough converted to the 'One World Order'... with 'Climate Change' and abortion / moral ethical standards now = to Communist Ideals = well over 65m dead babies to build our new 'one world order' no less 'evil' than Stalin, Mao, or Hitler combined.

What a tangled web we weave... Apple now worth 3T$... Amazon and Google/Facebook ... with Tesla/Musk.... our major 'New World Order' Global accomplishments!!!

Background.... China got away with 'it'[See Below]... why we stop Russia?

WSJ: Project Syndicate
Opinion: China runs roughshod over international law to expand its territory and influence without firing a shot
Last Updated: Dec. 11, 2021 at 12:31 p.m. ET
First Published: Dec. 9, 2021 at 9:53 a.m. ET
By Brahma Chellaney
Beijing redraws the map of Asia by unilaterally asserting dominion over disputed territories from Hong Kong and Taiwan to the Himalayas and the South China Sea.

China asserts the right to draw its own borders. GETTY IMAGES/ISTOCKPHOTO

NEW DELHI, India (Project Syndicate)—As the world’s largest, strongest, and longest-surviving dictatorship, contemporary China lacks the rule of law. Yet it is increasingly using its rubber-stamp Parliament to enact domestic legislation asserting territorial claims and rights in international law. In fact, China has become quite adept at waging “lawfare”—the misuse and abuse of law for political and strategic ends.

Under “commander-in-chief” Xi Jinping’s bullying leadership, lawfare has developed into a critical component of China’s broader approach to asymmetrical or hybrid warfare. The blurring of the line between war and peace is enshrined in the regime’s official strategy as the “Three Warfares” (san zhong zhanfa) doctrine. Just as the pen can be mightier than the sword, so, too, can lawfare, psychological warfare, and public-opinion warfare.
Through psychological warfare, propaganda, and a cynical misuse of law, China is advancing its revisionist territorial ambitions without having to fire a shot. The world’s democracies must wake up to the increasingly aggressive hybrid war that President Xi Jinping is waging.
Through these methods, Xi is advancing expansionism without firing a shot. Already, China’s bulletless aggression is proving to be a game changer in Asia. Waging the Three Warfares in conjunction with military operations has yielded China significant territorial gains."

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-runs-roughshod-over-international-law-to-expand-its-territory-and-influence-without-firing-a-shot-11638981324?mod=hp_minor_pos27&adobe_mc=MCMID%3D56 282603408693836891220675652293801481%7CMCORGID%3DC B68E4BA55144CAA0A4C98A5%2540AdobeOrg%7CTS%3D163924 6607

Cheers

[littledoggie]

Ever notice how documentaries on Hitler outnumber any documentaries on communist Russia, communist China, and all the others?

Recommendation for a good movie on the Holodomor - MR. JONES - the world kept it quiet. Why?

WW1 internment of mostly Ukrainians (1914-1920) who were INVITED here by the Canadian government to settle the west because the poofter Laurentian Elites didn't have the cajones to do it themselves and then force them to do labor at the camps when their German/Austrian cohorts (POWs) were not required to and then go on to destroy documentation of that stain on Canada's history - why?

[jazz]

We are fighting for democracy in Ukraine eh?

Don’t be so naive. Nothing of the sort is happening.

It’s all about a territory grab. Neo cons and whack job lefties want to make a new enemy and hem them in. All while we trade hundreds of billions with china. You can bet if Ukraine joins nato the missile silos will be pouring in. Hell even drooling fool Biden says he wants a nuclear exchange with Russia over it.

Show me the concentration camps in Russia. A million Muslims in chine live behind barbed wire. That doesn’t bother the shills I guess so long as we get cheap landfill bound junk from them.

[foragefarmer]

We are fighting for democracy in Ukraine eh?

Don’t be so naive. Nothing of the sort is happening.

It’s all about a territory grab. Neo cons and whack job lefties want to make a new enemy and hem them in. All while we trade hundreds of billions with china. You can bet if Ukraine joins nato the missile silos will be pouring in. Hell even drooling fool Biden says he wants a nuclear exchange with Russia over it.

Show me the concentration camps in Russia. A million Muslims in chine live behind barbed wire. That doesn’t bother the shills I guess so long as we get cheap landfill bound junk from them.

Jazz refer to BP's post #36

Tried of the merry go around, we're not going to agree on this

[makar]

The work ethic was bad before communism , after was worse, bred corruption dads cousin ran the state farm, his wife told the the kids dont open the office door until allowed dont think he was playing checkers.