Gabe Brown

[Braveheart]

The caveat is that even holistic farmers need to import nutrients. Even if your farm is big enough to have it's own hay and straw, those nutrients are "exported" from the hayfield or grain field to the feeding area (hopefully on the range or pasture). The holistic management course I took promoted buying your hay and straw so you're just importing nutrients from someone else's farm. It's hard to keep a good mineral cycle without some land somewhere being shorted.

My above statements are my own observations and are relevant to farming here is the northern parts. I don't believe there's such a thing as regenerative agriculture.

Re Gabe Brown, is his a sustainable farm? None of us really know because we don't really know his business. I can guarantee if he didn't have the oil patch families that live in Bismarck buying his products he wouldn't have what we think he has going.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

This is a great discussion. As a former mixed farmer up until not that many years ago, I can see what the thinking is on one hand but on the other hand profitability can be a real issue. These days if there is a desire to grow the farms acres, generating cash flow to make payments is job 1. Farming with a wholistic frame of mind with using low inputs, manure from cattle, etc can be sustainable but I feel it works best with a established outfit that doesnt have growth in mind. Mixed farms are a great place to trade straw , screenings, and other grains for high value manure. Green feed is a great rotational crop. We didnt have much permanent forage but used lots of millet or green oats. Breaking the rotation with forage is a great management tool. I think for those with no stomach for operating loans or high cash expenses the mixed farm of the type discussed have great merit. That being said, what we found that comparing say what a half section of canola would gross (or net) per acre and the work to grow that canola versus using that acres for feed and spending the winter with a cow / calf operation. I would never fault anyone who picked either way if they could be profitable. I know of nice guys going around speaking touting their "holistic" cattle farming plan that sounded good but if you looked at their actual operation things didnt look like what you expected. Sad thing too in so many cases is that how a lot of these people are seen by the neighbors in their area. Somewhat similar to the bible verse " no prophet is accepted in his hometown" For me if an operation can transition to a successful multigeneration operation then they are on the right path. I see a lot of outfits that do transition but very quickly change the method of operation. There was no buy in by the young generation. I know a pretty good guy that took it pretty hard that his kids didnt farm cause it was his way or the highway.

Very well said.
You hit the nail on the head with the comments about gross per acre and growth.
If your Grandpa was the last one who had to buy the land in your operation, and you have no inention or need to expand beyond that, then the economics of paying for land at todays prices are irrelevant, and you can do whatever you like.
As a still mixed up farmer, but almost out of cattle now, in recent years, no matter how I run the numbers, there is no way cattle can compare to the net or gross profit per acre ( on acres fit for crops).

I see all of the benefits of mixing livestock and grain, I think that is the direction the industry needs to go to keep our livestock industry profitable. The only silver bullet I have found to make this ground start to produce after decades of neglect is copious amounts of manure. But since I have had to buy all my land, mostly at arms length full market values, there is no way in he** I can pay for it using it for pasture or hay.
But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

[jamesb]

Very well said.
You hit the nail on the head with the comments about gross per acre and growth.
If your Grandpa was the last one who had to buy the land in your operation, and you have no inention or need to expand beyond that, then the economics of paying for land at todays prices are irrelevant, and you can do whatever you like.
As a still mixed up farmer, but almost out of cattle now, in recent years, no matter how I run the numbers, there is no way cattle can compare to the net or gross profit per acre ( on acres fit for crops).

I see all of the benefits of mixing livestock and grain, I think that is the direction the industry needs to go to keep our livestock industry profitable. The only silver bullet I have found to make this ground start to produce after decades of neglect is copious amounts of manure. But since I have had to buy all my land, mostly at arms length full market values, there is no way in he** I can pay for it using it for pasture or hay.
But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

There are quite a few cattle guys buying land in my area but they calving out a hell of a lot of cattle and or have purebred (is is still called that now that so many breeds are intermixed hybrids?) operations. They don't have a lot of cash crop.

[Hamloc]

Very well said.
You hit the nail on the head with the comments about gross per acre and growth.
If your Grandpa was the last one who had to buy the land in your operation, and you have no inention or need to expand beyond that, then the economics of paying for land at todays prices are irrelevant, and you can do whatever you like.
As a still mixed up farmer, but almost out of cattle now, in recent years, no matter how I run the numbers, there is no way cattle can compare to the net or gross profit per acre ( on acres fit for crops).

I see all of the benefits of mixing livestock and grain, I think that is the direction the industry needs to go to keep our livestock industry profitable. The only silver bullet I have found to make this ground start to produce after decades of neglect is copious amounts of manure. But since I have had to buy all my land, mostly at arms length full market values, there is no way in he** I can pay for it using it for pasture or hay.
But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Land in my area is trading for $5000 an acre and up. It doesn’t pencil for crops or cattle, but doing the math crops have a much better chance. Back grounding my calves right now, putting the 6lbs. Per head per day of ground barley just makes me shake my head, simply avoid doing the math lol.

[blackpowder]

Great discussion.
So how do All farms get off the treadmill.
And who is going to buy all that beef?
A huge macro reset maybe.

A Jeffersonian like ag economy may require proximity to urban centers that doesn't apply to the great plains.
Especially N of the 49th.
A solution for all acres hard to visualize. One picture asks what it will look like without base stock for our current N fertilizers. Large territory back to grass the only answer currently.
A futuristic mental work out.

Water will be the first key.
Soil-less food factories will be near the water source and near the urban base.
Eventually I see the buffalo coming back up here.

Nutrient cycle sustainability the other.
Eventually energy in has to equal energy out. New technologies required.

I'm confident it will work out.
And that in 100 years it will look very different. And no one will know who we were.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Great discussion.
So how do All farms get off the treadmill.
And who is going to buy all that beef?
A huge macro reset maybe.

A Jeffersonian like ag economy may require proximity to urban centers that doesn't apply to the great plains.
Especially N of the 49th.
A solution for all acres hard to visualize. One picture asks what it will look like without base stock for our current N fertilizers. Large territory back to grass the only answer currently.
A futuristic mental work out.

Water will be the first key.
Soil-less food factories will be near the water source and near the urban base.
Eventually I see the buffalo coming back up here.

Nutrient cycle sustainability the other.
Eventually energy in has to equal energy out. New technologies required.

I'm confident it will work out.
And that in 100 years it will look very different. And no one will know who we were.

The Buffalo are already back. I had a herd of 100 that stopped over in one of my quarters last winter, in the middle of their stampede across the landscape. Apparently the absentee owners thought cattle fences would be enough to keep them in the muskeg without hay for the winter. As it turns out, they don't even slow down when they go through fences.

As to your questions, I think the only low energy, low input solution is moving the populations to where the food is grown, since the other option obviously cannot be done. And I doubt anyone wants to move from their coastal climate to the northern prairies just so they can claim to be sustainable. Not to mention the energy requirements of living in a cold sparse, climate with such weather extremes, compared to the mild places they will move from.

[blackpowder]

I always enjoy a drive down AB hwy # 41.
From N to S it's a window on what was and always will be. And likely again for a lot more.

The food will always be moved to the population.

[shtferbrains]

How did you get rid of the Buffalo?
I had a similar situation shortly after BSE when buffalo had virtualy no value. They shot them off as they were happy there with lots of feed.
Can't herd buffalo if they don't want to go.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

How did you get rid of the Buffalo?
I had a similar situation shortly after BSE when buffalo had virtualy no value. They shot them off as they were happy there with lots of feed.
Can't herd buffalo if they don't want to go.

Not sure, I missed the entire rodeo, while I was working a few miles away. I know they went a few miles further and through a few more fences before they got them turned around. Many people on quads and side by sides, and a lot of fun is all I know.

[helmsdale]

I always enjoy a drive down AB hwy # 41.
From N to S it's a window on what was and always will be. And likely again for a lot more.

The food will always be moved to the population.

I particularly like the signs saying "no fuel/services for next 150km". Honestly i can't recall if they are still there or not, but man you get to see a little of everything on the drive from elk point to the havre border crossing! Just hope you 're well stocked for the drive cause theres a few stretches there where the deer/elk/antelope are pissed that you're touring through their sanctuary.

We're just west of 41, and south of 9, and to the discussion about gabe brown, I must say I'm a believer in the idea of keeping a living root in the soil. The only issue with this particular kneck of the woods, is that those roots had better get darned used to being dormant for 10+ months of the year. Because of that, the completely virgin prairie (of which there is still plenty), is in a sense monoculture. It consists largely of wide open, uninterrupted grass! Now of course, there are multiple varieties of said grass, but other than that there are only a few wild roses, crocuses, buckbrush, and buffalo beans that dot the landscape. When palliser went through here, I'm pretty sure he stopped in the back 40 and having witnessed the gaunt nature of the wildlife, said "this area shall never support human endeavors". He wasn't terribly far off the mark. Give me water and I'd explore a whole lot of these possibilities, but when june is the only semi-reliable month for moisture around here, and the only month that natural species flower and produce seed, I figure I'm stretching the limits by asking for 50-60 days of tolerable, and another 40 of broken dreams commencing somewhere around Calgary stampede.

[shtferbrains]

We used to go from Val Marie to hyway 41 and down to Havre when driving to nowhere on a preharvest tour/getaway from the farm.
Only place I ever saw with texas gates on a paved hyway with no fences going west there.
At that time it was all cattle on the Canadian side but lots of crop when you got to the boarder going south. Difference in programs I guess.

[foragefarmer]

So Gabe Brown tells the story of how he had four years of crop failures due to WEATHER in the 1990's made him decide he had to do things differently. Not sure how the soil was at fault for that.

Gabe farms in Bismark ND. and who knows what type of USA government subsidies he receives. A quick google indicates he goes on many speeking tours which I'm sure he gets paid for. Gabe received the $250000.00 Heinz Award just last month. Maybe he has access to CRP land for grazing who knows he farms in the USA. Who knows what other little hand outs Gabe gets, different country. I'm sure book sales don't hurt either.

In the early 2000's when Canadian beef industry was suffering from poor prices due to BSE, Gabe was getting top dollar for old culled cows. How many years was he able to capitalize on the high beef prices in the USA?

So good for him, I farm 500 miles from Bismark ND. and are not a "Cookie Cutter" operator as some have stated for using fertilizer. I will continue to put the fertilizer on my forage crops especially the grasses for seed production so the three families who make their living off our farm can continue to farm and prosper . Have any of you tried to grow grasses for seed production without fertilizer and seen what your yields are?

The straw by-product from our forage seed production is baled by four cow-calf operators who come from distances up to 60 miles to bale. One of them is one of the biggest cow-calf producers in all of Manitoba. He also has 100s of acres of Silage corn to feed his enormous herd. Can't seem to feed the cows on unfertilized land for some reason.

These cow calf guys are getting three to four big rounds per acre from our combined straw. This year less due to drought. Meanwhile the local cow calf guy who hasn't spend a cent on fertilizer in years and spreads his shit on the land has to bale for two miles in order to get one big round. He has thousands of acres of hay land just to look after his 100 cow calf operation. Even the Alfalfa has died off, that shouldn't be happening if the soil is looking after it's self. That's efficiency all right burning fuel and wearing out equipment.

I will continue to use fertilizer and get productive yields , as well as take care of my land.