Gabe Brown

[Blaithin]

You may not cookie cutter fertilize ForageFarmer, but you sure have a cookie cutter response to the kind of approaches Gabe uses.

FYI soil has been shown to be much more resilient to drought under some management practices than others. That is the direction Gabe took. Nothing to do with blaming soil, all about altering the soils abilities.

[foragefarmer]

You may not cookie cutter fertilize ForageFarmer, but you sure have a cookie cutter response to the kind of approaches Gabe uses.

FYI soil has been shown to be much more resilient to drought under some management practices than others. That is the direction Gabe took. Nothing to do with blaming soil, all about altering the soils abilities.

This is what I printed

"So good for him, I farm 500 miles from Bismark ND."

I farm in Manitoba you farm in Alberta.

Worlds apart just like Gabe is from me, but if Gabe's method works for go right ahead.

Gabe did say he also lost crop during those years to hail

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Typical of so many facets in life, if you can’t make a living doing something, go teach others how it’s done…

That is my concern, keeping me from pursuing the same business model as Gabe, I'm afraid the speaker circuit is getting crowded, and I may not be able to make enough that way to keep the farm afloat.

[WiltonRanch]

FWIW any of these gurus as you might call them have some good information and stuff which doesn’t apply to your situation or is complete bullshit. I don’t think I am going to farm without fertilizer, herbicide, or cattle vaccines. It is proven science that has worked to bring billions out of starvation. I look at my situation where I have some land which without cattle in the mix is not profitable. I would like to make better use of this ground even such and reduce my risk. Gabe’s basic message about armouring the soil with trash and zero tillage, and improving soil biology with diverse covers and grazing is really a no brainer here. However, past that that the message gets a bit hippy dippy. He doesn’t vaccinate anything and claims there’s enough basic minerals in the soil which are made available by good soil biology. Mining is mining and I have an acute disdain for those who don’t vaccinate their herds and spread their stupid diseases around the country.

By the way Buffalo are the biggest reservoir for brucellosis. Keep those bloody things locked up.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

So Gabe Brown tells the story of how he had four years of crop failures due to WEATHER in the 1990's made him decide he had to do things differently. Not sure how the soil was at fault for that.

Gabe farms in Bismark ND. and who knows what type of USA government subsidies he receives. A quick google indicates he goes on many speeking tours which I'm sure he gets paid for. Gabe received the $250000.00 Heinz Award just last month. Maybe he has access to CRP land for grazing who knows he farms in the USA. Who knows what other little hand outs Gabe gets, different country. I'm sure book sales don't hurt either.

In the early 2000's when Canadian beef industry was suffering from poor prices due to BSE, Gabe was getting top dollar for old culled cows. How many years was he able to capitalize on the high beef prices in the USA?

So good for him, I farm 500 miles from Bismark ND. and are not a "Cookie Cutter" operator as some have stated for using fertilizer. I will continue to put the fertilizer on my forage crops especially the grasses for seed production so the three families who make their living off our farm can continue to farm and prosper . Have any of you tried to grow grasses for seed production without fertilizer and seen what your yields are?

The straw by-product from our forage seed production is baled by four cow-calf operators who come from distances up to 60 miles to bale. One of them is one of the biggest cow-calf producers in all of Manitoba. He also has 100s of acres of Silage corn to feed his enormous herd. Can't seem to feed the cows on unfertilized land for some reason.

These cow calf guys are getting three to four big rounds per acre from our combined straw. This year less due to drought. Meanwhile the local cow calf guy who hasn't spend a cent on fertilizer in years and spreads his shit on the land has to bale for two miles in order to get one big round. He has thousands of acres of hay land just to look after his 100 cow calf operation. Even the Alfalfa has died off, that shouldn't be happening if the soil is looking after it's self. That's efficiency all right burning fuel and wearing out equipment.

I will continue to use fertilizer and get productive yields , as well as take care of my land.

Don't conflate poor management and the pitiful economics of cow calf, with the methods being discussed i this thread.

For most of 20 years now, the economics of cow calf haven't justified spending big money on fertilzer and inputs. For many of those years, it was all about survival, there was nothing left to spend on fertilizer. And that begins a downward spiral that is difficult to ever recover from. I doubt it was ever a conscious decision to go without. Unlike your operation where you are harvesting a high value per acre grass seed, that most years easily pays for the inputs.

And if your neighbor is like most around here, almost all of the manure ends up within a few hundred yards of the main farm, the rest deposited in clumps of trees and sloughs. What little ends up back on the fields is inconsequential compared to what has been removed over the decades. That is not remotely close to regenerative ag. Don't compare that to what Gabe is preaching and practicing. The squandered opportunity of many cash strapped cattle operations for the long term sustainability of the land is just sad.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

FWIW any of these gurus as you might call them have some good information and stuff which doesn’t apply to your situation or is complete bullshit. I don’t think I am going to farm without fertilizer, herbicide, or cattle vaccines. It is proven science that has worked to bring billions out of starvation. I look at my situation where I have some land which without cattle in the mix is not profitable. I would like to make better use of this ground even such and reduce my risk. Gabe’s basic message about armouring the soil with trash and zero tillage, and improving soil biology with diverse covers and grazing is really a no brainer here. However, past that that the message gets a bit hippy dippy. He doesn’t vaccinate anything and claims there’s enough basic minerals in the soil which are made available by good soil biology. Mining is mining and I have an acute disdain for those who don’t vaccinate their herds and spread their stupid diseases around the country.

By the way Buffalo are the biggest reservoir for brucellosis. Keep those bloody things locked up.

This soil is so devoid of minerals that we have to supplement generously, with mineral formulated for this far west, and add Selenium to the salt and mineral at rates well beyond the accepted maximum, and the calves need selenium within a few days of birth. White muscle was a very real problem before that.

[WiltonRanch]

Don't conflate poor management and the pitiful economics of cow calf, with the methods being discussed i this thread.

For most of 20 years now, the economics of cow calf haven't justified spending big money on fertilzer and inputs. For many of those years, it was all about survival, there was nothing left to spend on fertilizer. And that begins a downward spiral that is difficult to ever recover from. I doubt it was ever a conscious decision to go without. Unlike your operation where you are harvesting a high value per acre grass seed, that most years easily pays for the inputs.

And if your neighbor is like most around here, almost all of the manure ends up within a few hundred yards of the main farm, the rest deposited in clumps of trees and sloughs. What little ends up back on the fields is inconsequential compared to what has been removed over the decades. That is not remotely close to regenerative ag. Don't compare that to what Gabe is preaching and practicing. The squandered opportunity of many cash strapped cattle operations for the long term sustainability of the land is just sad.

Great point. Only way I see the cow calf sector surviving in my general area is in a mixed operation, and most herds around have a grain revenue as well. Gabe’s message is integrating the two to make them compliment one another more and make more profit. We ran a lot more cattle 5 years ago on very reasonable grazing and couldn’t justify it. Now we run less than half the cows and use them to complement the grain side. Cost per cow is considerably less than before. My goal is to structure it so there is really no opportunity cost to having a cow herd in a grain operation. More or less the cows are the clean up crew and nutrient cyclers like the microorganisms in the soil.

[WiltonRanch]

This soil is so devoid of minerals that we have to supplement generously, with mineral formulated for this far west, and add Selenium to the salt and mineral at rates well beyond the accepted maximum, and the calves need selenium within a few days of birth. White muscle was a very real problem before that.

Wow. Being that far west and selenium levels are that low? Selenium deficiency is bad here as well. We have to supplement for that. We are lucky here that our soils though solonetzic and calcareous are quite fertile. Soil tests always indicate low phosphate levels and we always fertilize but feed tests indicate no need for phosphorus supplements. Makes a person wonder if it’s the fertilizer supplying the boost or it’s the natural soil fertility. I really would like to go back 116 years ago to see the land before half and half and tillers messed it up.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Great point. Only way I see the cow calf sector surviving in my general area is in a mixed operation, and most herds around have a grain revenue as well. Gabe’s message is integrating the two to make them compliment one another more and make more profit. We ran a lot more cattle 5 years ago on very reasonable grazing and couldn’t justify it. Now we run less than half the cows and use them to complement the grain side. Cost per cow is considerably less than before. My goal is to structure it so there is really no opportunity cost to having a cow herd in a grain operation. More or less the cows are the clean up crew and nutrient cyclers like the microorganisms in the soil.

Exactly. And if we have any hope of competing with beef from south America where they don't have to start a tractor, we need to apply your model. A stand alone beef operation might have been able to compete back when land was almost free, but we have escalated our costs so high now, that the only way forward is if they eat left overs for as close to free as possible. And there is huge potential for that across the prairies.

We need to look at them as a way to turn inedible, unmarketable, or unharvestable growth into something we can market, and improve the land at the same time, exactly as you are describing.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

And as for vaccines, talk to the old timers about the wrecks they had before vaccinations became common. That was about as close to low intensity holistic livestock farming as possible too.

[ajl]

Crop rotation including a pulse crop on your good crop land is as sustainable as your going to get. I have a field that had peas in 2020 with a maintenance application of P and S. In 2021 this land got rr canola with a modest application of 230/lb of NPS blend. This land produced 30-40 bu/ac in a drought and soil test levels in late fall are good (60 lb/ac in top 6" of N but does call to continue P applications). In 22 it will get seeded to HRS wheat with a very modest application of fertilizer. In most cases that is as good as it gets. Manure is great if you can get it but it is very expensive to haul. Applied some to a rented field from a buddy's yard across road this fall. I hauled with rented spreader behind my tractor and he loaded with his track loader. Went good until the track loader broke down and now had a rented spreader and no track loader so cost per load going up. He used his front end loader to finish the day but not near as fast as track loader so affected the economics of the whole operation. Neither field has fencing around them so grazing not an economical operation.

[Sheepwheat]

The gabe brown idea takes the manure to the field in the animals. Intensive grazing. Hundreds of thousands of lbs of animals per acre, moving them at least daily. Modifications are made for different areas. Steve Kenyon in Alberta is a good guy to watch as well.

There is so much more to this than a shallow glance. It’s frustrating seeing some of the responses, as it is obvious they aren’t very familiar with the system; it sure is easy to bash it when you don’t have a complete picture.

And that’s ok, it’s not everyone’s cup of tea to have animals.

It’s interesting for sure.