US Grid Battery Storage

[TOM4CWB]

On Reuters: “Analysis: Weak winds worsened Europe’s power crunch; utilities need better storage.”

From the article” Europe’s largest wind producers Britain, Germany and Denmark harnessed just 14% of installed capacity, in the third quarter, when gas prices hit record highs, compared with an average of 20-26% seen in previous years, according to Refinitiv data.”

“It will become common for the electricity market in Europe to have a very high degree of volatility because that will be the nature of the assets that we are bringing online and the nature of assets we are taking offline.”

“In order to get commercial investments going into different kind of storage, like batteries, the market needs to give that price signal. There needs to be volatility and the stronger the price signal is, the more investment we will see.”

“Hopefully, the politicians have seen these price extremes over the last few months and will do the tally and then realize that probably we need to push for even more green energy and then figure out how we solve the problem of intermittency.”

Fml, the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result!

One big problem is that economics [instead gov regulation] are not driving the 'renewable electrical energy generation systems'. A mish mash of various levels of governments are involved... distribution of electricity is also a one pony deal without choices to keep costs down. FF energy on the other hand had been competitive till taxes messed that up in transport fuel especially. NH3 could be an interesting fuel if an economic way to generate ammonium can be implemented [as water and air are the needed ingredients]

As we tap the Phosphate in waste streams ammonium could be recovered as well.

Cheers

[AlbertaFarmer5]

[QUOTE=chuckChuck;522013 That would be a massive impossible change. Its never going to be our sole source of electricity.

[/QUOTE]Well said. But that is not what our politicians are saying.
So, in your own words, what do you think is going to be our source electricity when we achieve net zero?
Without contradicting yourself, or the NFU, or the environmentalists.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

“Hopefully, the politicians have seen these price extremes over the last few months and will do the tally and then realize that probably we need to push for even more green energy and then figure out how we solve the problem of intermittency.”

Hamloc, you need to quit posting quotes from the Babylon Bee, and pretending that it is a reputable news source. You know how upset Chuck gets when we use unreliable sources that post paraodies of the news, such as the example above.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't true.

This would be the equivalent of suggeting that we all need to plant this new crop. There is no equipment capable of harvesting it, no way to store it if we did, and no market for it even if we could harvest it. But we need to push for growing even more of it, and figure out how to solve the harvest, storage and marketing problems afterwards.
Good thing the customers of utilities and tax payers have unlimited money to sponsor these hair brained schemes.

[Hamloc]

Hamloc, you need to quit posting quotes from the Babylon Bee, and pretending that it is a reputable news source. You know how upset Chuck gets when we use unreliable sources that post paraodies of the news, such as the example above.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't true.

This would be the equivalent of suggeting that we all need to plant this new crop. There is no equipment capable of harvesting it, no way to store it if we did, and no market for it even if we could harvest it. But we need to push for growing even more of it, and figure out how to solve the harvest, storage and marketing problems afterwards.
Good thing the customers of utilities and tax payers have unlimited money to sponsor these hair brained schemes.

Here is another article from Bloomberg on the Financial post today: “Europe’s power crunch shuts down factories as price hits record.” But of course this is the fault of the rise in the cost of fossil fuels, nothing to do with bad government policy and poor planning lol!

[Hamloc]

Ah what a cold Christmas morning. As I eat breakfast I check the weather, -26 with a -35 windchill, I do love this global warming lol. So just for fun I pull up the AESO supply demand page on my tablet, what a surprise out of a possible 2269 megawatts of generation Alberta’s wind farms are generating 65 megawatts of electricity. I am very thankful for natural gas and coal, as they are generating 90% of our electricity this morning. Anyway it won’t be long before the grandkids arrive, have a Merry Christmas and remember if your Christmas tree lights were powered by wind and solar your tree would be dark! And for Chuck lol!

[chuckChuck]

Hamloc its a good thing you reminded us that wind and solar are intermittent sources because nobody has mentioned that for a few days. How is your intermittent grass growing today Hamloc? Got enough intermittent grass to power those 4 legged money makers at minus 40? LOL

My solar system is on track to put out 38000 kwh in 2021 and cover most of our farm usage. At the rate you currently pay for farm electricity in Alberta the system will pay for itself in less than 10 years. At which time you will be paying even more than you are now and I will be paying almost nothing for mine.

A4 will help you to figure out how to store all that solar electricity in your 2022 F150 EV. And don't forget to check back on a nice windy and sunny day and tell us how little renewable wind and solar is powering your Alberta Farm.

Happy New Year!

[jazz]

, have a Merry Christmas and remember if your Christmas tree lights were powered by wind and solar your tree would be dark! And for Chuck lol!

If the world was on any type of renewable power for the majority of its energy requirements, there would have been 10m dead in the past 3 days in NA.

Those 10 yr paybacks of solar arrays now have about a 3-5 yr shelf life before the land fill. They wont even pay back their original construction cost (offsetting the oil used to make them) and the associated govt subsidy and disposal and didnt even produce enough excess energy (and revenue) to create a replacement.

Any FF project pays its self off in 3 yrs and runs for 50. The economics arent even in the same ball park.

[poorboy]

How are electric vehicles calculated in the car makers fleet average?

So any idea how electric vehicles count in the Biden 55 mpg calculation for auto makers fleets?

Are EV’s not part of the 55 mpg as they don’t consume “gallons” or do they get a free “0 MPG” to help the 55 mpg goal or do they have a caculated mpg attached to the EV as they are using fossil fuels in lots of US states to make the EV move.

So far it looks to me like a shell game and Electric Vehicles are not getting tagged with the appropriate mpg penaties.

I do think EV’s are a good fit for lots of high popuation centers, but the window stickers should start showing a realistic “mpg” figure that these vehicles do actually consume to run.

[Hamloc]

Hamloc its a good thing you reminded us that wind and solar are intermittent sources because nobody has mentioned that for a few days. How is your intermittent grass growing today Hamloc? Got enough intermittent grass to power those 4 legged money makers at minus 40? LOL

My solar system is on track to put out 38000 kwh in 2021 and cover most of our farm usage. At the rate you currently pay for farm electricity in Alberta the system will pay for itself in less than 10 years. At which time you will be paying even more than you are now and I will be paying almost nothing for mine.

A4 will help you to figure out how to store all that solar electricity in your 2022 F150 EV. And don't forget to check back on a nice windy and sunny day and tell us how little renewable wind and solar is powering your Alberta Farm.

Happy New Year!

Actually Chuck in Alberta I would be reimbursed for the generation cost portion of my electricity. Which for the last 5 years has been 6.79 cents per kilowatt. I just signed a new contract for 6.89 cents a kilowatt for the next 5 years through Enmax. If I installed a system that produced 38000 kwh in a year in my area that would require a 28000 watt system(solar production factor of 1.35 for my area). A ground mount system of this size would cost approximately $72800. 38000 kwh x $.0689 kwh = $2618.20. $72800/2618.20 = 27.80 years to pay for the system. Assumptions are ground mount system $2.60 a watt installed. Credit per kilowatt of power generated of 6.89 cents a kilowatt. Now there is certainly no doubt I expect the price of electricity to rise in the future, so if the numbers are revisited in 5 years the results of the cost analysis may be different, but your belief that it would be payed off in less than 10 years is false. The transmission and distribution charges don’t disappear just because I am using less power and you are not credited for them only the generation portion.

Happy New Year

[chuckChuck]

The transmission and distribution charges along with the generation costs? Total cost per kwh delivered to your farm is what?

In Saskatchewan any kwh I produce up to what I use in a year I don't have to buy from Saskpower.

[poorboy]

Hamloc its a good thing you reminded us that wind and solar are intermittent sources because nobody has mentioned that for a few days. How is your intermittent grass growing today Hamloc? Got enough intermittent grass to power those 4 legged money makers at minus 40? LOL

My solar system is on track to put out 38000 kwh in 2021 and cover most of our farm usage. At the rate you currently pay for farm electricity in Alberta the system will pay for itself in less than 10 years. At which time you will be paying even more than you are now and I will be paying almost nothing for mine.

A4 will help you to figure out how to store all that solar electricity in your 2022 F150 EV. And don't forget to check back on a nice windy and sunny day and tell us how little renewable wind and solar is powering your Alberta Farm.

Happy New Year!

BUT, until you can get a system that stores that summer sunshine generated electricity and allows you to use it in the winter, you are still just getting a free ride on fossil fuel and large hydro projects back.

If all electricity was billed as energy cost and then demand and distribution, the solar farms would have trouble existing. Pay you 1 cent/kwh when its sunny in the summer and power needs are low, but actually charge you full demand and distribution costs and then charge you 20 cents/kwh in the winter months plus full demand and distribution costs and then lets compare the pay back on solar.

Right now the fossil fuel and hydro projects get throttled back when solar and wind are at max capacity, but the fixed costs of these are still getting passed along to most. In Sask, the power rate includes the energy plus demand and distribution. All solar and wind farms are unfairly getting credited for demand and distribution on the power generated. Once this gets corrected, the true value of renewable energy can be calculated. Right now renewable energy is getting a hell of a free ride from everyone else.

Now we are all entitled to get aboard this free ride, but with government unpredictability, things can change from a 10 year payback to a 60 year payback or a 5 year payback. Unpredictability is never good when planning long term money expenditures for items with no salvage value.

[chuckChuck]

I signed a 10 year contract with Saskpower.

In both Alberta and Saskatchewan both provinces are phasing out coal and adding a significant of renewables. So something must add up and have a credible business and operating plan behind it.

Saskatchewan has a mostly regulated crown corporation providing electricity and Alberta has a largely deregulated free market system.

Both systems are adding more renewables especially Alberta.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

I won't beat this dead horse yet again today.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Chuck.

And on a positive note, I've found the perfect solution to solar energy storage, the energy production works exactly out of sync with the sun.

Saint Bernard dogs.

On the hottest part of a hot summer day, they can't even expend enough energy to lift their eyelids.

As it cools off at night, can run marathons.

And on a cold dark winter day/night, raring to go 24/7. Just need lots of them, and lots of treadmills.

[jazz]

hamloc, the a solar array is an excellent investment - think of it as insurance. A guy will need one once the rolling brown outs and energy rationing start happening.

If musk can turn off your video games in the Tesla, I am sure they can lock it out 3 days a week too.

Next best investment is buy 20 ICE vehicles and put them in the quonset. They will be priceless in 25 yrs.

Also, hoard kerosene.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

hamloc, the a solar array is an excellent investment - think of it as insurance. A guy will need one once the rolling brown outs and energy rationing start happening.

If musk can turn off your video games in the Tesla, I am sure they can lock it out 3 days a week too.

Next best investment is buy 20 ICE vehicles and put them in the quonset. They will be priceless on 25 yrs.

Except, in our climate and latittude, the rationing won't be happening on July afternoons when the sun is shining, it will be on December nights.