Dockage & Shrinkage

[Blaithin]

Things get interesting when some crop prices get high. Nit picking starts hard, like pulses . It will happen in other crops when values drop , and eventually they will .
Take green peas , one of the few commodities that have actually dropped the past few months.
I know a few guys that are now getting royally screwed now . $16 contracts earlier now $14 , things change. They are all the same when prices drop ...
Paying big bucks for protein becomes a farce when chips are on the line ... DYODD
That really Bugg’s me ...
All of a sudden they make excuses as to grade ... imagine that , as they always have . The same dog and pony show as the generation before them . When things start slipping , the excuses start...... same game , 30 years on, different generation ,same family line that is now outbidding everyone in the area for land . Line companies no different when the the ball drops out of their favour .
Be careful who you deal with in “special crops” .... as per usual. When the excuses start ..... get a lawyer. It’s unfortunate but the game .
Apples don’t fall far from the tree ... ever

You might be surprised how often stuff is downgraded but still “ah put it in as a 1 or a 2, we can work with that”

The problems more frequently arise when a degrading factor is more wide spread and graders at export pick it. Can’t work with a downgrade if it’s everywhere and the third parties pick it. Wanna guess how happy a company gets if you load a train bought as a 1 red and it grades a 2 at port because you weren’t “nit picking” the degrading factors?

You know how much heated I seen in the last two weeks that was followed by “well the rest of the bin was fine (6 months ago)” and “it’s only 2 loads, can’t you just take it” Might be fine if you’re the first person with a load of heated but if you’re the second or third you're probably out of luck.

Farmers also need to be careful with their primary crops, not just special crops. Just because a degrading factor can be overlooked once doesn’t mean it can be overlooked all the time. Doesn’t have to have anything to do with price, or maybe it does because a companies head office is cracking down. Lots of factors at play.

[wmoebis]

You might be surprised how often stuff is downgraded but still “ah put it in as a 1 or a 2, we can work with that”

The problems more frequently arise when a degrading factor is more wide spread and graders at export pick it. Can’t work with a downgrade if it’s everywhere and the third parties pick it. Wanna guess how happy a company gets if you load a train bought as a 1 red and it grades a 2 at port because you weren’t “nit picking” the degrading factors?

You know how much heated I seen in the last two weeks that was followed by “well the rest of the bin was fine (6 months ago)” and “it’s only 2 loads, can’t you just take it” Might be fine if you’re the first person with a load of heated but if you’re the second or third you're probably out of luck.

Farmers also need to be careful with their primary crops, not just special crops. Just because a degrading factor can be overlooked once doesn’t mean it can be overlooked all the time. Doesn’t have to have anything to do with price, or maybe it does because a companies head office is cracking down. Lots of factors at play.

I agree with you but have trouble with those theories. A graders job is to grade it and bin it as it is. The merchants can and do pay what ever they want for those qualities. If you have a #2 call it a #2 the merchant can pay more if it can be blended up or cleaned for grade improvement. It is when intentional miss assessment or lack of knowledge that upsets me. And I've seen it all in every company.

Just because head office tells grader to crack down doesn't mean they should start miss representing. At the prices today it doesn't take much to make a big difference to take home.

He is also talking processor so it should be it is what it is.

[sumdumguy]

There really isn’t “a grade is what it is”. We’ve had extra-3 lentils get graded a few months later as a one or a two. Frozen feed durum, next spring suddenly a #2. Just depends how short the company is that needs them “today”. Grading is quite subjective as beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I know of a case where a green buyer has been known to actually add the dockage onto the gross weight for payment. Believe it or not. Farmers think that seed plants can just pick out the dockage. Some good product, dust and weight gets lost in the process, maybe not 5% but sometimes I am sure 2-3%, seen it over and over. Who absorbs the losses at 75 cent a pound flax or 55 cent lentils?

[Guest]

Morning, spoke with a CGC Rep, under Canadian Grain Regulations - Part 5, Section 30 discusses Shrinkage. Rate at all elevators is zero. So hoping to win that point. Special crops, smaller grain companies = risk. Read contracts front to back, be sure to have all signatures as well. Thanks everyone for your input!

[wmoebis]

There really isn’t “a grade is what it is”. We’ve had extra-3 lentils get graded a few months later as a one or a two. Frozen feed durum, next spring suddenly a #2. Just depends how short the company is that needs them “today”. Grading is quite subjective as beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I know of a case where a green buyer has been known to actually add the dockage onto the gross weight for payment. Believe it or not. Farmers think that seed plants can just pick out the dockage. Some good product, dust and weight gets lost in the process, maybe not 5% but sometimes I am sure 2-3%, seen it over and over. Who absorbs the losses at 75 cent a pound flax or 55 cent lentils?

I disagree, If done properly by the Grain Guide by a properly trained person the only subjective part is under the subjective factors assessing frost and mildew, even then a properly trained grader will rarely make mistakes. The problem is there is no universal/certified training.

And yes there is lots of times, more than you think, that employees add dockage at the scale or in the computer. I can't figure out why they would do that they are taking $ from farmers some of them are friends even relatives besides if Act was enforced they could face hefty fines even jail.

[Herc]

And yes there is lots of times, more than you think, that employees add dockage at the scale or in the computer. I can't figure out why they would do that they are taking $ from farmers some of them are friends even relatives besides if Act was enforced they could face hefty fines even jail.

Its called tookage….

[sumdumguy]

Been on both sides of the industry. If I told you how many times a grain buyer deals with the bait and switch farmer you would call me a liar. Farmer brings in pail, delivers totally different product. Hard for the honest ones to believe that, but it does happen. Best is where producer is right there for the grading and dockage assessment. But if you load a semi and it is gone - how much control or input do we have? Just last fall durum graded 1 and 2, dockage varied between 1% and 4%.one too low and maybe 4 too high. Guess I see it differently as I believe there is no exact. JMHO Probably pissed a few of you off today, didn’t mean to, just my experience.

[furrowtickler]

Been on both sides of the industry. If I told you how many times a grain buyer deals with the bait and switch farmer you would call me a liar. Farmer brings in pail, delivers totally different product. Hard for the honest ones to believe that, but it does happen. Best is where producer is right there for the grading and dockage assessment. But if you load a semi and it is gone - how much control or input do we have? Just last fall durum graded 1 and 2, dockage varied between 1% and 4%.one too low and maybe 4 too high. Guess I see it differently as I believe there is no exact. JMHO Probably pissed a few of you off today, didn’t mean to, just my experience.

Yup that happens, lots of guys out there like that .
But it does happen the other way , absolutely no doubt as well

[wmoebis]

Been on both sides of the industry. If I told you how many times a grain buyer deals with the bait and switch farmer you would call me a liar. Farmer brings in pail, delivers totally different product. Hard for the honest ones to believe that, but it does happen. Best is where producer is right there for the grading and dockage assessment. But if you load a semi and it is gone - how much control or input do we have? Just last fall durum graded 1 and 2, dockage varied between 1% and 4%.one too low and maybe 4 too high. Guess I see it differently as I believe there is no exact. JMHO Probably pissed a few of you off today, didn’t mean to, just my experience.

There is one company that is famous for adding .2, .3 right up to .7 or 1% to dockage reporting or into computer then says must have been a entering error, another that adds extra to results then adds dockage to retained sample so if you complain looks like they gave you a break, still another that uses wrong set up in carter day and most will weight wrong pans coming out of dockage machine.

I agree farmers have to be there and watch to make sure it is done and counted right just like watching bank teller or cashier count cash or change.

[Blaithin]

Had someone delivering last week, all one bin, proteins from 13.6 up to 14.9. Most high 14s. Had a random load test 12.6.

Now this is a very organized farmer. He takes representative samples of every load as he loads it to retest if there’s something off. Even the most well meaning staff can have an oops mislabelling a sample so this is to try and help offset that possibility.

Either way, he brings in his own bagged sample for the load, puts it in the machine and hits the orange button himself. 12.6.

The oddity of how a bin throwing primarily high 14 protein can suddenly throw one load of 12.6 is hard to explain. If it had been on our sample we probably would have said oops, something must have got messed up, here we’ll make it 14.6. Yet having his own sample showed that it is possible and it’s not always a human error on the terminal staffs part.

Also too often the fact a company needs grain so is willing to buy a 2 or 3 as a higher grade in order to get it is confused with thinking that it was graded a higher grade. Yes mis grades happen but more frequently than not it’s going to be something was missed and the grain was graded higher than it is than that something was seen that wasn’t there and it downgraded it. Subjective factors not included in this generalization.

And yes, I’ve worked at places that want to add to dockage no matter what and I know employees that said they would refuse to until the company put something in writing saying they had to do it.

And yes, I’ve seen employees just add it.

I’ve also seen farmers bring in a bin sample and then haul something completely different. Bins might throw some outlying stuff, like a 12.6 pro load, but even a half decent grader can look at samples and tell when it’s not the same stuff.