Organic farming that could work. Thoughts?

[Sheepwheat]

Well as you mostly know, I have been shifting our farm to lamb and direct marketing, from grain. Which has been awesome mentally and financially. I missed the acreage expansion boat, I missed a lot of boats, I made mistakes I can’t take back, and the weather and other circumstances ultimately forced me to think outside the box. It has meant seeding land down to forages.

Of course forages don’t last forever and need a break from time to time. Here is an idea I am toying with. Tell me what you think, good and bad.

As I seed down a new quarter, I get it moving on the path to organic certification. After four or five years of hay, (alfalfa/various grasses), I take it out with tillage in the fall or spring, regardless, as soon as possible, as in before the forage is petering out in yield and density of plants. I hate tillage, but bear with me. Do a decent summerfallow. Seed it in the fall to fall rye or winter wheat. The next spring, it goes back into forage, probably sainfoin for rotation and diversity. Four to five years of sainfoin, repeat.

Nitrogen is a non issue. Pks need replacing to offset mining. There are organic options to replenish.

Weeds should be pretty manageable. Following a stand of alfalfa, most annuals nearly disappear, and I have not seen perennial problems in my hay whatsoever. I have seeded winter wheat on tilled fallow with zero inputs and had decent yields in the wet years. When I say no inputs, I mean no N, a bit of P, no herbicides. A well established winter cereal is extremely competitive.

I will not try for more than one or very possibly two organic crops. I think that is the absolute key, and why I think this could work. I believe and have succeeded in growing conventional yields with minimal inputs before. Fall rye, winter wheat, and oats, I have had tremendous crops with next to no inputs and zero herbicides. I think using fall seeded cereals is the other part of the key to avoid weedy messes.

A few things. I do not love tillage at all. But what other choice is there?

We 99.9% of the time get lots of snow and plenty of rain. For those that worry about dryness after hay.
I can see alfalfa benefits for years after taking it out, and studies corroborate this.

Is this idea insane, or is it feasible? I think it could work, and work well. The key being only taking one or possibly two organic crops before going back to forage. Using competitive winter cereals, not spring crops, or trying to grow flax without weed control like most guys do. I need the hay any way. I am already planning to grow and sell hay that I have extra. I also hate not having enough hay, so I refuse to go there again.

Thoughts?

[Sheepwheat]

And I forgot to add. This is on a very small scale. So you have to put your small farmer thinking hat on that it’s not thousands of acres I’m taking about.

[ry0972]

Well as you mostly know, I have been shifting our farm to lamb and direct marketing, from grain. Which has been awesome mentally and financially. I missed the acreage expansion boat, I missed a lot of boats, I made mistakes I can’t take back, and the weather and other circumstances ultimately forced me to think outside the box. It has meant seeding land down to forages.

Of course forages don’t last forever and need a break from time to time. Here is an idea I am toying with. Tell me what you think, good and bad.

As I seed down a new quarter, I get it moving on the path to organic certification. After four or five years of hay, (alfalfa/various grasses), I take it out with tillage in the fall or spring, regardless, as soon as possible, as in before the forage is petering out in yield and density of plants. I hate tillage, but bear with me. Do a decent summerfallow. Seed it in the fall to fall rye or winter wheat. The next spring, it goes back into forage, probably sainfoin for rotation and diversity. Four to five years of sainfoin, repeat.

Nitrogen is a non issue. Pks need replacing to offset mining. There are organic options to replenish.

Weeds should be pretty manageable. Following a stand of alfalfa, most annuals nearly disappear, and I have not seen perennial problems in my hay whatsoever. I have seeded winter wheat on tilled fallow with zero inputs and had decent yields in the wet years. When I say no inputs, I mean no N, a bit of P, no herbicides. A well established winter cereal is extremely competitive.

I will not try for more than one or very possibly two organic crops. I think that is the absolute key, and why I think this could work. I believe and have succeeded in growing conventional yields with minimal inputs before. Fall rye, winter wheat, and oats, I have had tremendous crops with next to no inputs and zero herbicides. I think using fall seeded cereals is the other part of the key to avoid weedy messes.

A few things. I do not love tillage at all. But what other choice is there?

We 99.9% of the time get lots of snow and plenty of rain. For those that worry about dryness after hay.
I can see alfalfa benefits for years after taking it out, and studies corroborate this.

Is this idea insane, or is it feasible? I think it could work, and work well. The key being only taking one or possibly two organic crops before going back to forage. Using competitive winter cereals, not spring crops, or trying to grow flax without weed control like most guys do. I need the hay any way. I am already planning to grow and sell hay that I have extra. I also hate not having enough hay, so I refuse to go there again.

Thoughts?

I think in your area and with your nearly guaranteed moisture you could easily seed Fall Rye, harvest that and let it volunteer a 2nd year and either harvest that or graze and seed down to your forage/hay crop.

[helmach]

I have toyed with the exact same scenario myself. I 100% think it can work. in fact know a guy that did exactly this but his organic cash crop was flax.

[agstar77]

And the point. Not going to feed the world and cannot be sustained on large scale. As hobby go for it. Knock yourself out.

[jazz]

Whats your reason behind trying thinking organic Sheep.

[WiltonRanch]

If you have livestock you can incorporate perennial forages into the mix for sustained weed control and reduction of nitrogen to some degree. The test is if you can make it pay on rented ground. Hay mines your soil if you export it off your land. I have thought about this and think if it is to be long term sustainable you graze and feed on the the ground and take nothing off. Ruminants only take up 10% of what they consume. Your soil gets the nutrient cycling quicker and in better shape for the succeeding crop. I underseeded my greenfeed to a mix of clovers in hopes of seeding green next spring. If I’m desperate for a spring graze it’s available, and if I need it for hay which I’d have to be really desperate it’s available. If things go to hell I can do a green manure. I just want that shorter term legume I don’t have to commit to for a long time. No plans to ever go organic but want to improve my soil on the cheap.

[Sheepwheat]

Whats your reason behind trying thinking organic Sheep.

A great question with many answers. So bear with me, in no particular order.

I hate Monsanto. Rotfl just kidding.


We didn’t all start at the same point with our farms. I never had much of a starting base to build from, it limited me, and I hit a wall years ago in terms of ability to expand acres, which limits this farm in a conventional thinking sense.
I think organic can be done so much better than it is. Like much better.
I have excellent, very naturally fertile, relatively new soil on my farm.
I think differently than most farmers it seems.
I have animals. I have hay. The transition is a three year process, made easy with perennial forages.
I have grown 60 bushel winter wheat and rye, 70 bushel barley, and 130 bushel oats without fertilizer or weed control in years following forages because of bizarre accidents and screwups that I ended up leaving to see how they fared. Those numbers pencil exceptionally well with organic prices.
I have seen my low assessed land produce WAY better than my high assessed land, due to perennial forages included in the mix.
I have had many lamb buyers that ask if I’m certified, and feel I could gain some more markets if I was.
I could spray out the hay, and seed a conventional crop. Fine, but why waste an opportunity to take advantage of excellent soil improvements to score with?
I enjoy haying. I enjoy it SOOO much more than other field operations. I may be odd, but towing around my thousand dollar baler, and finishing a field and looking over a field of bales is fun and rewarding to me, and hasn’t got old. It is so much less stress than combining ever was. Haying machinery is so very much cheaper than grain machinery.
I don’t see a great future in modern agriculture as it is to be honest. It’s the same old, same old. Always has been, always will be.
Probably more reasons than that, but that’s a few of them.

[Sheepwheat]

Good points on the grazing Wilton. I have a neighbor who grazes corn. His soil is incredibly improving and his non corn crops are showing it. I am trying to figure out ways to incorporate the sheep more directly. Rouble with sheep vs. Cows is of course fencing requirements. It’s more complicated than throwing up a wire or two.

[jazz]

Just a suggestion, before full on continuous cropping, our farm was 1/3 pulse (chicks or lentils), 1/3 cereals and 1/3 chem fallow summer fallow.

If its input costs you want to avoid, thats a good model. Peas would work in your area and if you till the chem fallow late in the summer, you can break that disease cycle. You could slip a cover crop on the chem fallow and then till it down or cut it for green feed before freeze up if moisture permits.

Organic is a huge step in regulation and marketing. A lot of hoops to jump through and maintain. And to sell organic, thats small processors who arent the most solvent and arent nearby. You wont get paid on the scale likely.

[makar]

Makes total sense to me, you will be doing the full cycle, livestock is the answer.

[foragefarmer]

Trying to take out old forage stands only using tillage without glyphosate, quackgrass will be spread from one end of the field to the other.

Your tame hay mixtures will be eventually choked out and quack will take over the whole field.

See guys trying to cheap out on glyphosate when taking out old forage stands, fields look like shit the following years.

And what are you going to do when the broadleaf weeds move in, their seeds are just waiting for the soil to be disturbed so they can start growing.

Broadleaf weed seeds are everywhere there are migratory birds and wild animals.