Organic farming that could work. Thoughts?

[Sheepwheat]

Trying to take out old forage stands only using tillage without glyphosate, quackgrass will be spread from one end of the field to the other.

Your tame hay mixtures will be eventually choked out and quack will take over the whole field.

See guys trying to cheap out on glyphosate when taking out old forage stands, fields look like shit the following years.

And what are you going to do when the broadleaf weeds move in, their seeds are just waiting for the soil to be disturbed so they can start growing.

Broadleaf weed seeds are everywhere there are migratory birds and wild animals.

What’s quackgrass? Lol, just kidding.

Be specific on the broadleaf weeds that will move in please. Like annuals, biennials, perennials? In the single year in five say, that there will be a non perennial crop, I am curious which weeds would get a foothold? Remember, it is getting cut for hay, so annuals are done before they seed out. Not much competes against a good forage crop from what I’ve seen.

I appreciate the input, but please be more specific. I think my theory is unique, using winter cereals for ONE year before going back to forage, no?

[WiltonRanch]

What’s quackgrass? Lol, just kidding.

Be specific on the broadleaf weeds that will move in please. Like annuals, biennials, perennials? In the single year in five say, that there will be a non perennial crop, I am curious which weeds would get a foothold? Remember, it is getting cut for hay, so annuals are done before they seed out. Not much competes against a good forage crop from what I’ve seen.

I appreciate the input, but please be more specific. I think my theory is unique, using winter cereals for ONE year before going back to forage, no?

Canada thistle need I say more.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

I think what you propose is likely the only way that organic is feasible or sustainable. Will still need to get the manure back onto the fields somehow, preferably without requiring much diesel fuel. You should be able to virtually close the loop and quit buying nutrients.

Since we both get to enjoy excess water and soil that doesn't drain, I think your solution is ideal for this scenario. The alfalfa not only sucks up the excess water for the entire growing season, but also leaves all the giant deep root channels for water to infiltrate. And if you don't completely kill it, it can come back later in the crop year and continue fixing nitrogen.

2 years ago when it rained every single day from late April till mid July, and crops were suffering from water logged soils even on the best drained land, I had canola direct seeded into alfalfa(~3 years old stand) sprayed out days before seeding. In ground that normally drowns out every time it rains, which is why it was in hay.
Night and day difference to how the canola handled the excess rain on the alfalfa ground vs the stubble, all else being equal. I'm trying to find a way to turn alfalfa into a perrenial cover crop, set it back every spring, but not quite kill it.

Of course, unless your soil is more forgiving than mine( I almost guarantee it is), going back to tillage is a giant step backwards for water infiltration, at least on my clay it is. This is the number one reason I changed my mind about continuing the transition a few years ago.


As you say, perrenial weeds such as thistle are a non issue coming out of hay. Annuals, aren't such a big yield robber when you have lots of water, and a competive, fast growing crop. and rye is ideal because of its allelopathic effect. And as long as you have the livestock, you can always hay the weeds if it gets out of control. Quack grass will be a problem, I don't think there is a solution except for summer fallow. Maybe if you seed pure alfalfa, and spray the quackgrass out the first few years before going organic, you could at least have a clean start. But if hauling manure is part of the equation, then quackgrass will be a constant battle.

If you aren't able to close the nutrient loop with manure or grazing, then keep in mind, Organic fertilizer is expensive relative to it usefulness. You wouldn't want to be buying organic fertilizer to apply at removal rates for the hay crops every year, just so you can sell one organic grain crop every 5 years. Unless that also results in a significant premium for your now organic lamb? Probably cheaper to mortgage the farm and apply huge rates of conventional PKS before transitioning, then try to coast.

In the broader economic picture. I'm not sure that the luxury of organic foods is going to have such broad appeal/ premium going forward if the economic situation, inflation and shortages continue down the current path. Of course, that also means that inputs would be that much higher, and finding a way to avoid that would possibly cancel out the lower premiums.

[Old Cowzilla]

Local organic farm that's been that way for 20 years or more keeps alot of cows , mob grazes and silage wraps feed to control weeds cuts early . Dare I say a plow controls weeds very well but some cover crop before freeze up would be required. They farm sandy soil so bare ground is rare around there. I see food on store shelves marked 80 % organic now how long before the marketplace screws that up ?

[ajl]

Buddy of mine did this for a number of years. He would seed alfalfa and then get the land certified as organic. Then he did a couple of organic crops. I ran the combine on one of his organic flax crops one year and it was a good crop. Then as weed pressure built up it would be back to conventional for a few years to clean up. Need glyphosate to kill the thistle before putting back into forage. He was not of the 'organic' cult, just found a way to pocket some premiums that may exist.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Buddy of mine did this for a number of years. He would seed alfalfa and then get the land certified as organic. Then he did a couple of organic crops. I ran the combine on one of his organic flax crops one year and it was a good crop. Then as weed pressure built up it would be back to conventional for a few years to clean up. Need glyphosate to kill the thistle before putting back into forage. He was not of the 'organic' cult, just found a way to pocket some premiums that may exist.

Supposedly the certifiers frown on that practice, of switching acres in and out. Not sure if they have any teeth to enforce it though?

It certainly goes against the spirit of the movement. But when most of the regulations are so ridiculous, assinine and arbitrary, that exploiting the loopholes is a necessity.

[Sheepwheat]

I don’t seem to have quackgrass really. Can someone explain how it can get a foothold using my theory, so I could change what needs changing?

One thing about how I have farmed that is already different, is living with weeds on occasion and not panicking if some are out there. If I had a few small patches of Canada thistle for example in my grain year, I wouldn’t care much. If it looked like the general long term organic fields do, starving for nutrients and covered in weeds I would care. Because it would obviously be affecting yield. But after a few years of hay, I see no thistles left. Upon breaking up the forage, do they suddenly re appear? And become a threat in six months?

[Sheepwheat]

And the point. Not going to feed the world and cannot be sustained on large scale. As hobby go for it. Knock yourself out.

I’ve been pondering what you mean here. Because I plan on small acres, that makes it a hobby? Even if it contributes to my bottom line? Trying to decide if this is a personal smear again, or just a general statement?

[jamesb]

Two of my organic buddies either plant sweet clover and do a plow down a year after wheat or plant alfalfa and have several years to build organic matter and the nitrogen levels that were severely depleted. In my parts its wild mustard that is the curse of the organic guys and quickly makes a huge weed seed bank for future years.

[checking]

Anyone wish to go gold mining?

I think washing rocks would be a lot more entertaining than cleaning organic grain. Tony Beets has a saying, "sucks to be you "

Yet, in another lifetime, I'd have the same land base, and sow a fifth of it to flax each year. The rest would be seeded to alfalfa/grass, left standing, and waiting for its turn to be flax.

Problem of fertilizer reduction - solved. Problem of weed control - solved. Concern for feeding the world - solved. Now, if only a company would develop a four year terminator alfalfa - grass mix.

Dreaming of another lifetime.

[ajl]

Supposedly the certifiers frown on that practice, of switching acres in and out. Not sure if they have any teeth to enforce it though?

It certainly goes against the spirit of the movement. But when most of the regulations are so ridiculous, assinine and arbitrary, that exploiting the loopholes is a necessity.

The hard core 'organic' cult members don't like this practice but to a certifier an inspection is a fee earned. So long as it meets the rules as written why not? This is likely the only practical way of getting around the problems of 'organic' status as unfortunately to operate otherwise is to believe in the existence of the 'free lunch'. He gave me a copy of the manual put out by the certification agency because I was interested in trying it too. It was an inch thick.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

. Now, if only a company would develop a four year terminator alfalfa - grass mix.

Dreaming of another lifetime.

That and so many other innovations that could potentially make organic viable sustainable and profitable. And about the only way we could potentially accomplish any of them would be by using genetic modification.
Unfortunately, the marketers of the undifferentiable organic products has chosen to demonize GMO as the only way to attempt to differentiate their products in the marketplace. Effectively shooting themselves in the foot to prevent any future progress in the industry.