Where will the diesel fuel come from if we do replace gasoline engines with EV's?

[biglentil]

1000L of diesel is 10,000kWh or 10MWh.
1000L of diesel cost is $1500 roughly
10,000 kWh cost is $2000.
Electricity is 33% MORE expensive than diesel.

Electric powertrain would be 80-90% efficient vs diesel at 35% efficiency. Electricity is already more expensive than gas/diesel at todays prices when purchasing an equivalent amount.

Lets look at this a bit farther. A horsepower is defined as 745 watts. A typical 80ft drill and cart will do best with a 600hp tractor typically operating around 80% engine load or 480hp conditions depending. 480hp X 745 = thats 357kw/hr. Now lets use your highside estimate of 90% efficient electrical drivetrain. Typical rig probably operates at least 12hrs a day. So 12x357/0.9 = 4760KWH battery is required. Lets assume they could have a battery that large fit somewhere. The new Ford Lightning pickup has a 131KWH battery for example and when towing a medium sized trailer has a range of around 100miles. The new Electric Bobcat is claimed to last upto 4hr but am hearing 2hrs is more real world.

Ok so now the problem charging the massive 4760kwh battery. The best charging efficiency for a Tesla is 89% due to heat from the inverter and wire loss. So 5348000 watts are required from the grid source. Lets say the farm has a 400amp service even though I think a 200amp service is probably more typical. 400ampsx240volts= 96000 watts/hr. So to charge that battery (5348000/96000) = 56hrs of charge time and during that time not even a single lightbulb in the farm yard could be turned on.

Battery operated tractors are a pipe dream imo.

[Guest]

please don't bring facts/realities/physics into the discussion
these green sheep know way more than the experts

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Lets look at this a bit farther. A horsepower is defined as 745 watts. A typical 80ft drill and cart will do best with a 600hp tractor typically operating around 80% engine load or 480hp conditions depending. 480hp X 745 = thats 357kw/hr. Now lets use your highside estimate of 90% efficient electrical drivetrain. Typical rig probably operates at least 12hrs a day. So 12x357/0.9 = 4760KWH battery is required. Lets assume they could have a battery that large fit somewhere. The new Ford Lightning pickup has a 131KWH battery for example and when towing a medium sized trailer has a range of around 100miles. The new Electric Bobcat is claimed to last upto 4hr but am hearing 2hrs is more real world.

Ok so now the problem charging the massive 4760kwh battery. The best charging efficiency for a Tesla is 89% due to heat from the inverter and wire loss. So 5348000 watts are required from the grid source. Lets say the farm has a 400amp service even though I think a 200amp service is probably more typical. 400ampsx240volts= 96000 watts/hr. So to charge that battery (5348000/96000) = 56hrs of charge time and during that time not even a single lightbulb in the farm yard could be turned on.

Battery operated tractors are a pipe dream imo.

Thanks for doing the math. In case you haven't noticed, the cheerleaders aren't big fans of math.

Your example includes only one tractor running half a day. Around here, when mother nature cooperates however breifly, it is more like 24 hours per day. And not one tractor, but multiple machines, tillage, rolling, harrowing, spraying, seed and fert trucks. Plus all the automobiles for transportation. Plus places are already outlawing home heating and cooking with gas, so add that plus clothes dryers and water heaters to the electrical load.

There might be one 400 Amp service on a farm, doubtful there are services that size at every field edge, so now that machine has to travel back to farm yard every time.

Around here, I've used the heater as often as the AC during both harvest and seeding, so derate the battery life accordingly for ambient air temp, and heater usage.

On the other hand, assuming we achieve fully autonomous farm equipment, it could be fleets of very small machines rather than carrying 1000 bushels of seed across the field all day, so there would be some energy savings there.


I just looked up the energy density of a battery in a Tesla model 3. If that scales up linearly to the tractor above, it only needs to weigh a little over 40,000 lbs. So just swapping batteries when they need recharging, instead of going back to the yard to charge will be hardly any more difficult than it is in the Milwaukee impact wrench, just need a 40+ ton crane on standby.

Couldn't find the physical size of a Tesla model 3 battery, but found the energy per volume of a powerwall battery. By that measure, the battery size for the 4wd tractor only needs to be 95.73 cu meters in size.
I don't think in cu meters, so I converted to bushels, 2860 bushels would do the job. So the equivalent of towing around the biggest grain cart in the industry and almost half more again. Mount that in place of the fuel tank and it will do wonders for the field of vision from the cab.

[Guest]

Can you imagine
Chuck and some others on here think it can work
Astounding to say the least

[TOM4CWB]

Ethanol can be used in Diesel engines, 1.7x diesel energy density. No particulates, Nox reduced over 93%… same power output as normal Diesel engines… no after treatment needed like diesels need now.





There is no need to go to electrical batteries for our equipment energy supply on our farms. Ethanol is less expensive than diesel on an energy basis right now.

Cheers

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Ethanol can be used in Diesel engines, 1.7x diesel energy density. No particulates, Nox reduced over 93%… same power output as normal Diesel engines… no after treatment needed like diesels need now.





There is no need to go to electrical batteries for our equipment energy supply on our farms. Ethanol is less expensive than diesel on an energy basis right now.

Cheers

Seems like a workable solution.

I'm sure the food versus fuel debate won't be reignited during a time of supposed global famine.

[WiltonRanch]

Railroads would be the low hanging fruit, already electrified in many parts of the world. Just need overhead wires. Using existing proven technology. I haven't heard a word about that in any discussions about a climate emergency.

Which would be cheaper and easier, converting a diesel electric locomotive to full electric with overhead wires along a fixed route, or trying to build batteries large enough to power farm machinery, plus the associated charging infrastructure, plus the necessary reduntacy to allow time for charging, let alone the cost of retrofitting or replacing the existing fleet.

As of today, the hyped up F150 EV can't even tow a trailer any useful distance, but now some are claiming we should have electric tractors etc? People cannot even fathom just how much energy is in the ~1000L of diesel that fits within a cubic meter fuel tank, and just how much larger that would have to be using current battery technology.

I think I might have posted this before, but when the Soviets were determined to electrify everything, that included tractors, and they did build some that ran on extension cords. Mandated top down bureaucracy at its best. Not much less insane than current policies.

The Soviet electric tractors was a complete joke along with Soviet ideas about agriculture. Some of the ideas of mass conversion to battery powered equipment are a joke but how many will suffer like those in the Soviet Union because of backwards ideas about farming? It’s a cautionary tale to say the least.

[ALBERTAFARMER4]

Lets look at this a bit farther. A horsepower is defined as 745 watts. A typical 80ft drill and cart will do best with a 600hp tractor typically operating around 80% engine load or 480hp conditions depending. 480hp X 745 = thats 357kw/hr. Now lets use your highside estimate of 90% efficient electrical drivetrain. Typical rig probably operates at least 12hrs a day. So 12x357/0.9 = 4760KWH battery is required. Lets assume they could have a battery that large fit somewhere. The new Ford Lightning pickup has a 131KWH battery for example and when towing a medium sized trailer has a range of around 100miles. The new Electric Bobcat is claimed to last upto 4hr but am hearing 2hrs is more real world.

Ok so now the problem charging the massive 4760kwh battery. The best charging efficiency for a Tesla is 89% due to heat from the inverter and wire loss. So 5348000 watts are required from the grid source. Lets say the farm has a 400amp service even though I think a 200amp service is probably more typical. 400ampsx240volts= 96000 watts/hr. So to charge that battery (5348000/96000) = 56hrs of charge time and during that time not even a single lightbulb in the farm yard could be turned on.

Battery operated tractors are a pipe dream imo.

You’re thinking about this in the wrong way…


https://youtu.be/kHnMPIOqzTE

https://youtu.be/qcYR2XaD0UA

https://youtu.be/NDFEJRqGsso

[Hamloc]

1000L of diesel is 10,000kWh or 10MWh.
1000L of diesel cost is $1500 roughly
10,000 kWh cost is $2000.
Electricity is 33% MORE expensive than diesel.

Electric powertrain would be 80-90% efficient vs diesel at 35% efficiency. Electricity is already more expensive than gas/diesel at todays prices when purchasing an equivalent amount.

As far as the cost of electricity AB4, I agree on the 20 cents a kilowatt if you have locked in your generation price. I pay 6.9 cents for generation and transmission and distribution averages out to roughly 12-13 cents over the year. If your on the floating rate the generation portion would have been as high as 15 cents a kilowatt this year. Energy isn’t cheap.

The biggest limitation to farm use would be electrical capacity. I have a 200 amp service, even if this was tripled there are times when it wouldn’t be enough and I run a small operation. If you were farming 10000 acres and up I can’t imagine what you would require for an electrical service..

[biglentil]

You’re thinking about this in the wrong way…


https://youtu.be/kHnMPIOqzTE

https://youtu.be/qcYR2XaD0UA

https://youtu.be/NDFEJRqGsso

Nope autonomous or not, big or small, doesnt change the overall amount of work required to put a crop in. My math is there prove it wrong. Cute fluffy videos though.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Nope autonomous or not, big or small, doesnt change the overall amount of work required to put a crop in. My math is there prove it wrong. Cute fluffy videos though.

As I was saying above, the cheerleaders really don't like math.
Whether the farming operation is done by 1 600 horsepower machine or 600 1 horsepower machines, the total energy required to charge them all won't change significantly.

But the only real savings would be not having to drag as much dead weight around in total

[Guest]

There’s those inconvenient Damn laws of physics again
“An inconvenient truth” shall we say?