Where will the diesel fuel come from if we do replace gasoline engines with EV's?

[shtferbrains]

So the meal is worth about $10 per bushel, or half of the market value of $20.00 bushel

For easy calculation, if the oil value is $1.00 per liter half that cost with the meal revenue and canola bio fuel is .50 cents per liter

The pioneers grew oats to feed the horses that did the work.
When tractors came along it was cheaper to buy the fuel and sell the oats.

Seems like we/govenment screwed that up.

How many acres of canola do you need to press per 1000/acres?

[TOM4CWB]

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2022/10/20221011-uopetj.html

There can be as much Diesel as is needed... 6 refineries were down on the west coast of North America... which is why diesel prices are up... plus with E15 added... and ethanol cheaper than gasoline from fossil fuels... Electric cars replacing gasoline ICE cars.. ample gasoline available.

"Honeywell introduces new ethanol-to-jet technology
11 October 2022

Honeywell announced a new ethanol-to-jet fuel (ETJ) processing technology that allows producers to convert corn-based, cellulosic, or sugar-based ethanol into sustainable aviation fuel (SAF). Depending on the type of ethanol feedstock used, jet fuel produced from Honeywell’s ethanol-to-jet fuel process can reduce greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions by up to 80% on a total lifecycle basis, compared to petroleum-based jet fuel (based on the EPA’s summary LCA of GHG emissions for sugarcane.)

Ethanol and isobutanol feedstocks for Alcohol-to-Jet fuels are covered in Annex 5 of ASTM D7566. (Earlier post.)

Demand for SAF continues to grow, yet the aviation industry is challenged by limited supplies of traditional SAF feedstocks such as vegetable oils, animal fats and waste oils. Ethanol offers producers a widely available, economically viable feedstock. Honeywell says that its ready-now technology uses high-performance catalysts and heat management capabilities to maximize production efficiency, resulting in a cost-effective, lower carbon intensity aviation fuel.

A 2021 life-cycle analysis by the US Department of Energy’s (DOE) Argonne National Laboratory concluded that ethanol-to-jet fuel conversion, combined with other technologies such as carbon capture and sequestration (CCUS) and smart farming practices, can result in negative GHG emissions compared to petroleum-based jet fuel."

Honeywell pioneered SAF production with its Ecofining technology, and our new ethanol-to-jet fuel process builds on that original innovation to support the global aviation sector's efforts to reduce GHG emissions and meet SAF production targets with an abundant feedstock like ethanol. Honeywell’s ethanol-to-jet process, when used as a standalone or when coupled with Honeywell carbon capture technology, is ready now to provide a pathway to lower carbon-intensity SAF.

—Barry Glickman, vice president and general manager, Honeywell Sustainable Technology Solutions

[Rareearth]

Larry i don't believe your words or thoughts go unheard.

Change is difficult and takes time, for example how and why has skippy lasted or survived this long.

Thanks for posting the numbers.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

I don’t want to say it will never happen but it will mean a complete rework of the planet’s entire infrastructure for that to happen. Battery tech has improved substantially and continues to do but from what is in the works I do not see anything barring an improvement in infrastructure first. For instance I could see an autonomous ev platform for seeding, spraying etc. Smaller footprint and multiples working in a field vs a large unit. Will still need a three phase power line at the corner of every field and charging station. Seems practical doesn’t it? Stationary operations like mines already involve electric powered loaders in some cases. Instead of chasing the ev one size fits all mentality maybe look at diesel electric drive which reduces fuel consumption 30%, a national emphasis on expanding rail transport again, and convert ocean ships to natural gas.

Railroads would be the low hanging fruit, already electrified in many parts of the world. Just need overhead wires. Using existing proven technology. I haven't heard a word about that in any discussions about a climate emergency.

Which would be cheaper and easier, converting a diesel electric locomotive to full electric with overhead wires along a fixed route, or trying to build batteries large enough to power farm machinery, plus the associated charging infrastructure, plus the necessary reduntacy to allow time for charging, let alone the cost of retrofitting or replacing the existing fleet.

As of today, the hyped up F150 EV can't even tow a trailer any useful distance, but now some are claiming we should have electric tractors etc? People cannot even fathom just how much energy is in the ~1000L of diesel that fits within a cubic meter fuel tank, and just how much larger that would have to be using current battery technology.

I think I might have posted this before, but when the Soviets were determined to electrify everything, that included tractors, and they did build some that ran on extension cords. Mandated top down bureaucracy at its best. Not much less insane than current policies.

[hedgehog]

The pioneers grew oats to feed the horses that did the work.
When tractors came along it was cheaper to buy the fuel and sell the oats.

Seems like we/govenment screwed that up.

How many acres of canola do you need to press per 1000/acres?

I did that calculation years ago
25% of your land is needed to grow the oil u need to fo the work
Horses needed roughly the same

[TOM4CWB]

I did that calculation years ago
25% of your land is needed to grow the oil u need to fo the work
Horses needed roughly the same

My calculation this year is it cost us 2% of gross revenue for fuel. 14% for fertilizer.

Cheers

[biglentil]

Lets do ball parks and be generous all in imperial gallons. At seeding time tractor is 23gal/hr at 30 acres an hour or so with tenders, transporting, burnoff lets call it 1.5 gal an acre, incrop spraying lets call it 2 passes maybe 0.3 gal an acre, harvest and grain movement more like 2 gal/acre. Maybe a bit of field work .7 gal. So 4.5 gal or about 17l an acre for the year. If one bushel of canola produces 20l that should do it. So about 2.5% of a 40 bus canola crop would supply all the energy required by the equipment to produce it. If a guy wants to burn canola oil better hang onto that pre year 2000 iron with mechanical fuel pumps, electronic systems are a bit more fuel picky.

[Rareearth]

So if yearly production cycle ( or field equipment fuel requirements) are 17 liters per acre x .50 cents per liter = $8.50 acre

Plus all the carbon credits, what revenue would be generated?

It would smell good

[ALBERTAFARMER4]

Railroads would be the low hanging fruit, already electrified in many parts of the world. Just need overhead wires. Using existing proven technology. I haven't heard a word about that in any discussions about a climate emergency.

Which would be cheaper and easier, converting a diesel electric locomotive to full electric with overhead wires along a fixed route, or trying to build batteries large enough to power farm machinery, plus the associated charging infrastructure, plus the necessary reduntacy to allow time for charging, let alone the cost of retrofitting or replacing the existing fleet.

As of today, the hyped up F150 EV can't even tow a trailer any useful distance, but now some are claiming we should have electric tractors etc? People cannot even fathom just how much energy is in the ~1000L of diesel that fits within a cubic meter fuel tank, and just how much larger that would have to be using current battery technology.

I think I might have posted this before, but when the Soviets were determined to electrify everything, that included tractors, and they did build some that ran on extension cords. Mandated top down bureaucracy at its best. Not much less insane than current policies.

1000L of diesel is 10,000kWh or 10MWh.
1000L of diesel cost is $1500 roughly
10,000 kWh cost is $2000.
Electricity is 33% MORE expensive than diesel.

Electric powertrain would be 80-90% efficient vs diesel at 35% efficiency. Electricity is already more expensive than gas/diesel at todays prices when purchasing an equivalent amount.

[biglentil]

1000L of diesel is 10,000kWh or 10MWh.
1000L of diesel cost is $1500 roughly
10,000 kWh cost is $2000.
Electricity is 33% MORE expensive than diesel.

Electric powertrain would be 80-90% efficient vs diesel at 35% efficiency. Electricity is already more expensive than gas/diesel at todays prices when purchasing an equivalent amount.

Lets look at this a bit farther. A horsepower is defined as 745 watts. A typical 80ft drill and cart will do best with a 600hp tractor typically operating around 80% engine load or 480hp conditions depending. 480hp X 745 = thats 357kw/hr. Now lets use your highside estimate of 90% efficient electrical drivetrain. Typical rig probably operates at least 12hrs a day. So 12x357/0.9 = 4760KWH battery is required. Lets assume they could have a battery that large fit somewhere. The new Ford Lightning pickup has a 131KWH battery for example and when towing a medium sized trailer has a range of around 100miles. The new Electric Bobcat is claimed to last upto 4hr but am hearing 2hrs is more real world.

Ok so now the problem charging the massive 4760kwh battery. The best charging efficiency for a Tesla is 89% due to heat from the inverter and wire loss. So 5348000 watts are required from the grid source. Lets say the farm has a 400amp service even though I think a 200amp service is probably more typical. 400ampsx240volts= 96000 watts/hr. So to charge that battery (5348000/96000) = 56hrs of charge time and during that time not even a single lightbulb in the farm yard could be turned on.

Battery operated tractors are a pipe dream imo.

[Guest]

please don't bring facts/realities/physics into the discussion
these green sheep know way more than the experts

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Lets look at this a bit farther. A horsepower is defined as 745 watts. A typical 80ft drill and cart will do best with a 600hp tractor typically operating around 80% engine load or 480hp conditions depending. 480hp X 745 = thats 357kw/hr. Now lets use your highside estimate of 90% efficient electrical drivetrain. Typical rig probably operates at least 12hrs a day. So 12x357/0.9 = 4760KWH battery is required. Lets assume they could have a battery that large fit somewhere. The new Ford Lightning pickup has a 131KWH battery for example and when towing a medium sized trailer has a range of around 100miles. The new Electric Bobcat is claimed to last upto 4hr but am hearing 2hrs is more real world.

Ok so now the problem charging the massive 4760kwh battery. The best charging efficiency for a Tesla is 89% due to heat from the inverter and wire loss. So 5348000 watts are required from the grid source. Lets say the farm has a 400amp service even though I think a 200amp service is probably more typical. 400ampsx240volts= 96000 watts/hr. So to charge that battery (5348000/96000) = 56hrs of charge time and during that time not even a single lightbulb in the farm yard could be turned on.

Battery operated tractors are a pipe dream imo.

Thanks for doing the math. In case you haven't noticed, the cheerleaders aren't big fans of math.

Your example includes only one tractor running half a day. Around here, when mother nature cooperates however breifly, it is more like 24 hours per day. And not one tractor, but multiple machines, tillage, rolling, harrowing, spraying, seed and fert trucks. Plus all the automobiles for transportation. Plus places are already outlawing home heating and cooking with gas, so add that plus clothes dryers and water heaters to the electrical load.

There might be one 400 Amp service on a farm, doubtful there are services that size at every field edge, so now that machine has to travel back to farm yard every time.

Around here, I've used the heater as often as the AC during both harvest and seeding, so derate the battery life accordingly for ambient air temp, and heater usage.

On the other hand, assuming we achieve fully autonomous farm equipment, it could be fleets of very small machines rather than carrying 1000 bushels of seed across the field all day, so there would be some energy savings there.


I just looked up the energy density of a battery in a Tesla model 3. If that scales up linearly to the tractor above, it only needs to weigh a little over 40,000 lbs. So just swapping batteries when they need recharging, instead of going back to the yard to charge will be hardly any more difficult than it is in the Milwaukee impact wrench, just need a 40+ ton crane on standby.

Couldn't find the physical size of a Tesla model 3 battery, but found the energy per volume of a powerwall battery. By that measure, the battery size for the 4wd tractor only needs to be 95.73 cu meters in size.
I don't think in cu meters, so I converted to bushels, 2860 bushels would do the job. So the equivalent of towing around the biggest grain cart in the industry and almost half more again. Mount that in place of the fuel tank and it will do wonders for the field of vision from the cab.

[Guest]

Can you imagine
Chuck and some others on here think it can work
Astounding to say the least

[TOM4CWB]

Ethanol can be used in Diesel engines, 1.7x diesel energy density. No particulates, Nox reduced over 93%… same power output as normal Diesel engines… no after treatment needed like diesels need now.





There is no need to go to electrical batteries for our equipment energy supply on our farms. Ethanol is less expensive than diesel on an energy basis right now.

Cheers

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Ethanol can be used in Diesel engines, 1.7x diesel energy density. No particulates, Nox reduced over 93%… same power output as normal Diesel engines… no after treatment needed like diesels need now.





There is no need to go to electrical batteries for our equipment energy supply on our farms. Ethanol is less expensive than diesel on an energy basis right now.

Cheers

Seems like a workable solution.

I'm sure the food versus fuel debate won't be reignited during a time of supposed global famine.