Still baffled on cover crops

[Hamloc]

It has in most areas been a relatively dry year. In my immediate area, only canola left to combine. Last 3 mornings a light frost. I read, as an example Furrow will avoid heavy harrowing to leave stubble to catch snow. So lack of moisture certainly a big issue. This is why the push for cover crops baffles me. If you could have something growing post harvest wouldn’t it use precious moisture? I have a friend that seeds fall rye with his cereal silage in the spring. After he cuts the silage around the first week in August he gets rye growth for fall pasture. But you need cattle to utilize this regrowth. The Enviro’s and governments want less cattle. Regardless, it seems to me that lack of moisture and lack of growing season make cover crops a baffling proposition in my opinion. Maybe someone can help me out here.

[Blaithin]

Generally the idea is based on covering the soil and creating root spaces. A root gives moisture a path down into the soil which allows for better infiltration. You won’t get that dirt cap and run off if you have good cover and paths down.

Depending on the plant, many cover crops are known for extensive root systems, you can get roots that go quite deep and help break up/prevent a pan and encourage the subsoil to fill up as well. Can really help catch snow melt vs having it just run off.

But yes, most cover crops work best in tandem with livestock and in areas where the fences are gone and water sources are spread out, they can be more difficult to manage. Can do green manure type ones that are plowed back in but if the weather changes that’s also leaving it vulnerable to drying out when turned over, and has destroyed the root paths.

[bucket]

I think tillage radish is a great idea. So I tried it one time in a 400 acre area that needed some help, unfortunately with no rain it did not do so well. The few that did what they were supposed to were quite amazing.

[Blaithin]

I think the biggest problem with CCs, besides ideally having livestock, is you start hearing about them when it’s dry/drought. Hear little about them when it’s wetter.

So if you try them then they’re more likely to fail, like anything else in a drought, and then people are soured to them. Well they didn’t work!

But when moisture is good nobody wants to waste acres on a cover crop.

[jamesb]

I know lots of rye is seeded at a light rate after soybeans in the US mostly as a anti water erosion tool. On our farm we don't need that but I believe that the true story isn't told yet. For me I am trying to save moisture for next year and don't want anything growing to use moisture. Eventually there will be enough data that will either validate positives of cover crops (maybe its doing things that we aren't aware of?) or discount the practice. The South east research farm at Redvers is doing work on this but I haven't really read much about it yet.

[Blaithin]

Fella had a cover crop in last year, German millet, tillage radish, oats, annual ryegrass, peas. It caught a lot of snow over the winter.

This year it had triticale on it and there was another trit field nearby.

CC field did about 10 bushels an acre more.

But

He’s not convinced just because of the extra dicking around.

He doesn’t have cattle so had it offered up for neighbours to cut and bale but they were lowballing him and couldn’t make time for it so he said screw it, sprayed it out, then broke it up this spring, which would have exposed it to the heat and evaporation this May.

Meanwhile if it was this year that CC would be gold for cow feed and he wouldn’t have the extra work, just extra income.

[bucket]

I think the biggest problem with CCs, besides ideally having livestock, is you start hearing about them when it’s dry/drought. Hear little about them when it’s wetter.

So if you try them then they’re more likely to fail, like anything else in a drought, and then people are soured to them. Well they didn’t work!

But when moisture is good nobody wants to waste acres on a cover crop.

I started out in good conditions to get them going, plus there were a lot of low spots I wanted to break with the roots without going to deep , My problem like 2021 and this year was it did not rain after they germinated and couldn't get to moisture below to tap .

The few that did , like I said were amazing and the cows my neighbour put out on them loved them. They ate the top of the root and occasionally pulls one out.

I like the idea but the timing and cost and what I seen the next year didn't pencil.

Not against them but all things have to pencil out here. And there are more dry years than too wet . There is also the frost factor , will they have the time required to get the best out of them.

[furrowtickler]

It has a fit no doubt
Longer growing season areas
Livestock to utilize feed
Higher moisture areas

In many areas this year cover crops would have simply died , and used what little moisture there was for the main crop .
Here even higher seeding rates were detrimental in dry zones in fields .

There are soil additives that really do help water infiltration, especially in clay soils .

Without livestock, in a generally short growing season and an area generally always short on moisture it will see very limited acres here . But other areas it definitely may have a fit .
Most of the time when the crop get off here snow not far behind and it stays till end of April . Literally no time for cover crops to be of any benefit

[LEP]

Fella had a cover crop in last year, German millet, tillage radish, oats, annual ryegrass, peas. It caught a lot of snow over the winter.

This year it had triticale on it and there was another trit field nearby.

CC field did about 10 bushels an acre more.

But

He’s not convinced just because of the extra dicking around.

He doesn’t have cattle so had it offered up for neighbours to cut and bale but they were lowballing him and couldn’t make time for it so he said screw it, sprayed it out, then broke it up this spring, which would have exposed it to the heat and evaporation this May.

Meanwhile if it was this year that CC would be gold for cow feed and he wouldn’t have the extra work, just extra income.

How much did the cc seed cost? Cost of seeding? Working it under? Moisture loss?

Even if cattle graze it, there can be issues seeding without preworking.

Not sure an extra 10 bushels of triticale can make it pay.

[bucket]

In dry years the cracks in the ground go deep enough to do what the cover crops do. While there is no bales or grazing but the soil cracking is free.

[furrowtickler]

Fella had a cover crop in last year, German millet, tillage radish, oats, annual ryegrass, peas. It caught a lot of snow over the winter.

This year it had triticale on it and there was another trit field nearby.

CC field did about 10 bushels an acre more.

But

He’s not convinced just because of the extra dicking around.

He doesn’t have cattle so had it offered up for neighbours to cut and bale but they were lowballing him and couldn’t make time for it so he said screw it, sprayed it out, then broke it up this spring, which would have exposed it to the heat and evaporation this May.

Meanwhile if it was this year that CC would be gold for cow feed and he wouldn’t have the extra work, just extra income.

That can be an issue with no livestock. You need a very reliable livestock producer to make it work.
Even getting just straw bales done can end up a mess with broken bales , twine , bales left out , not getting paid ……
Most simply don’t have time to deal with some of those situations on top everything else that must be done on time. Spraying , fall work and fertilizing . Some do lots , some do very little . Each area and farm very different.
Weed control would become very challenging I would think with cover crops ?

[Blaithin]

Weed control would become very challenging I would think with cover crops ?

Yes, he’s picky with what he uses since they’re a seed farm. I believe it’s fall rye that he won’t touch because it’s a disaster with volunteers after.

[TASFarms]

What about radish with peas like David Brandt was doing.
Seeding rate definitely plays a big factor in drought survival.
There is quorum sensing among multi species and water cycle is different too.
Is yield the best way to rate how successful something is? I got asked that question last winter. The more I think about it the answer is no. A refractometer. Will tell you more what’s going on. There are other ways to measure what’s going on

[bucket]

There is also the fact they are supposed to sequester carbon? Not sure of that but if true it should be somehow linked to the price on pollution that the phucktards in Ottawa keep harping on about. Carbon farming could become lucrative if government ever recognizes the benefit we provide!

[13stripe]

if you have a seeding window winter wheat adds benefits like a cover crop with weed suppression and weather window risk mitigation.